Fandom of Fandoms Podcast
Fandom of Fandoms is a podcast that dives into the worlds that fans love most — from galaxies far, far away to magical schools, epic quests, and everything in between. Each episode spotlights a different fandom, exploring its history, what makes it special, and why people are so passionate about it. We’ll chat with real fans, share wild stories, and invite you to geek out with us, one fandom at a time.
Fandom of Fandoms Podcast
The Fellowship of the Fandom: Lord of the Rings
Step into the enchanted realm of Middle-earth as we explore the unparalleled impact of J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings on fantasy and storytelling. This conversation takes us from the unexpected origins of Tolkien's world—born from languages he created in the trenches of World War I—to the enduring legacy that continues to shape modern fantasy literature, film, and culture.
Our guest Annalise shares her lifelong journey with Tolkien's work, and together we unpack what makes these stories so powerful: the meticulously crafted languages, the comprehensive world-building, and most importantly, the radical message of hope that ordinary people can make choices that matter. We debate the merits of extended versus theatrical editions, examine how Peter Jackson's practical effects created a tangible Middle-earth that still captivates viewers, and discuss how modern adaptations like The Hobbit trilogy and Rings of Power both honor and challenge Tolkien's legacy.
Whether you're a casual viewer who enjoys the films or a dedicated fan who celebrates Hobbit Day with multiple meals, this episode illuminates why Middle-earth continues to feel like home for so many fans. Join us for this journey and discover why, in a world of increasingly cynical storytelling, Lord of the Rings stands as a glass of water in a morally gray landscape.
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If you have ideas about future episodes or would like to join us as a guest, send us an email at fandomofpodcast@gmail.com!
All right, gentlemen. And lady. Thank you. See, I gotta, it's fun to be Michael. It's fun to be Michael, yeah. Well, we are here again uh right after recording Spider-Man. So we're so glad to have Joe back with us filling in um not as Michael, but at least like in the you know, helping us to fill an empty seat. So, Joe, thank you for being better than an empty seat. Okay, we appreciate you.
SPEAKER_02:I strive to be better at Michael, better than Michael.
SPEAKER_01:Oh man. But we are super excited to be here um talking Lord of the Rings today. So I'm gonna go ahead and pass to Ben to start. We're gonna go ahead and start with our theme music, which is I'm gonna go different today. Oh. Yeah, let's let's throw in a themed for our episode. Yeah. So here we go. I I love it. Ah, so calm and peaceful. This is when we get the the copyright strikes against us. You know, it's okay.
SPEAKER_03:We're not here for views and everything, but anyways, welcome to Fandom and Fandoms. We are so glad you're joining us here in the Shire of all places. Um, and if you're the first time you're joining us, we every week talk about a different fandom that people love to geek out on. And we've covered football, we've covered Spider-Man, and now here we are at the founding of most fantasy that I think I I know of. Uh Lord of the Rings, and Annalise here joining us as our expert. So to start with, like Nick, uh, what's your level of knowledge of Lord of the Rings?
SPEAKER_01:Um, yes, Lord I I wore my shirt to annoy Ben. That was the Ben is a is a Cincinnati fan. This is the only Lord of the Rings shirt that I had. It was Pittsburgh themes. Joe, Joe also does not appreciate, but that's all right. No, anyways, my my background of of Lord of the Rings really ranges from I have I'm kind of like Joe actually. I have not read, I don't think I've read all of the books. I have if I did, it was when I was a kid. So I need to like go back and what like that's one of the things I need to do is actually read them. I did start the audiobooks that uh Andy Circus. Andy Circus man that he did all of the voices to, and I think I listened to the entire first one, and then I got partway through the second. I gotta come back to it and finish it. We could do it together. Let's read them together. Let's do it. I love sitting in a room listening to the audiobooks together. Um but no, I I love I've seen all of the movies, the extended version, um we'll get into that hot takes later. But I've already talked about that one. Um, but uh yeah, so I I've seen all the Hobbit movies, read the Hobbit book. Actually, being for the people that have not watched or are not aware of me, that's most people are, but I'm just gonna put it out there. I'm a teacher and I have taught The Hobbit as well. So that is another thing that I've done. So background into I've also tried to get other people to be a part of this fandom, and they did not appreciate it in the way that I wanted them to, sadly.
SPEAKER_00:I wish I could say that surprised me.
SPEAKER_01:It's a bummer, but you know, I I get it. It's not it's not an easy read. No, even Tolkien.
SPEAKER_03:I was gonna say, considering Tolkien wrote it as a children's book, like I mean, like you would think it'd be easier to read, but no.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and I could talk a lot about the way that modern fiction is paced, right? Like everything is modern books are paced for the TikTok generation. And so it's like books that are coming out currently, it's like action, action, action, action, action. And so if you're not used to reading books that were written over 20 years ago, then you're just not used to that kind of pacing. And it takes like and it takes an adjustment and it takes a little bit of work, but you know, well, I'm about to throw it back to Ben.
SPEAKER_01:What about you? What's your background?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, about the same as you. I have read the books, it's it's been probably about 10 years, so I'm due for another read-through. But um, I have not read the Silmarillion, but you know, very few people have.
SPEAKER_00:I haven't actually. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:That's okay. Um, yeah, I I got started with the movies, like that was my first introduction, and once the first one came out, I binged through all four books, the main four books, within you know, a year of of the first movie coming out, because I was just so into it. And so ever since then, you know, I probably re-watch the extended versions every year, every other year at least. Like, yeah. So yeah, I'm pretty into at least the movies for sure.
SPEAKER_02:So this side and that side. Yeah, Joe. We don't read. Joe, what about you?
SPEAKER_01:Where's your baby? Don't read. Not reading. The English teacher.
SPEAKER_02:No, I um similar to Ben, I uh got into Lord of the Rings when the first movie came out, and I was like, this is a fantasy world that is absolutely fascinating. And just extremely well-written characters. I think the undertaking that was those movies is a feat that is surpassed by none. Like even to this day, you know, we're looking at over 20 years later. They still are cinematic masterpieces.
SPEAKER_00:The pinnacle of practical effects. Oh, 100%.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and I just got I'm super passionate about it. Uh, one of my buddies uh has written a uh uh not like a fanfic, but a a sequel audio drama that's focused fanfic. Oh Lane? Which I think uh my friend Lane Smith. It's called the Red Book of Westmarch, and it's the continuation of the Hobbit story after the plot of the Lord of the Rings, and I get to be part of that. I my usual portrayal of Bilbo Baggins, or I'm Bill Joe Baggins. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's actually his DD name.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, nice perfect.
SPEAKER_02:Um so it you know, it's such a fun world, and I, you know, exposed to it through the movies, have been super passionate about it ever since. And I I feel like a poser sometimes because I've never read through all the books, but um it's amazing. I love it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, what about our our guest here that is our expert? Um, because you know more about Lord of the Rings than I think anybody else that I am in close proximity to. Um, because I can remember actually one of my experiences is with Annalise watching one of the movies and her having to explain things to me quite a bit. Like I I thought, and at that time I had not seen in the mirror as many times as I have now, but it uh yeah, I I can remember you having quite a knowledge base of Lord of the Rings. So why don't you just kind of talk to us? Like, what's your background? What do you know, or how'd you get well, we can get into how you got into it later.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. All right. So um, yeah, I've read through the books three times. So it has been like 10 years. So I also am rusty and I keep saying that I'm due for a reread. And one of these days I'm just gonna quit whatever garbage I'm like halfway through and I want to not finish anyway, and and just go back to Lord of the Rings because there is just uh I'm trying to decide what to say now, what to say for later. There it's like a you know, it's the foundation of fantasy, like you said. Like it truly is. Um, and so it's like it is like the framework, the reference piece for everything else.
SPEAKER_03:Like halflings, orcs, yeah, a lot of dragon stuff, even like all just stems from Tolkien's writing and his world building, which is just crazy to think about that.
SPEAKER_02:Like, yeah, but and the plural spelling of dwarves, or is it elf?
SPEAKER_00:It's dwarves, yeah. He actually changed the spelling of dwarves because it used to be dwarfs, and he thought that was stupid and linguistically inconsistent. So he changed it for the English language.
SPEAKER_02:True story, Tolkien was like dwarves, V E S. That's how it is, and then everybody was like, Okay, you're Tolkien.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, yeah, he became the de facto like fantasy lore builder. So yeah, why not?
SPEAKER_01:Well, let's uh well so let's jump in because normally at this point we talked a little bit about like the origins and kind of you guys are already hitting on that, the fact that it did start the just like the fantasy genre to some degree. Um, but what about just kind of like our basic overview? I'll I'll pass this to you, Annalise, to kind of just give us like the the overview of what Lord of the Rings is and what it kind of encapsulates a little bit. Do you want to kind of take that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. So um it actually is like it's not even like just us saying this, like it's actually kind of like by the experts considered to be the first modern fantasy novel, right? Like, I actually watched a Brandon Sanderson video about it, speaking of. Um, and he was talking about it, and it's like it's true. Like Tolkien based his work on mythology. Like what comes before him is just straight up like Greek and you know, Greek myths and Icelandic epics and everything else. So it's like he created what George R. Martin, what Brandon Sanderson, what you know, Robert Jordan, all of modern fantasy builds on that sort of framework. And I mean, you take things like the hero's journey, and obviously that existed in mythology before, but he sort of perfected it, refined it, turned it into the novel form that it exists in. So, like you look at at its root, Lord of the Rings is a story about good versus evil. It's about the triumph of hope in difficult times, and it's a incredibly luscious world fantasy world with, you know, language and 10,000 years of history and races and cultures and details and everything. Because with Tolkien being a linguist, of course, like that was one of his main passions. It's one of the jokes about Lord of the Rings is that you know, some people write a language to go with their fantasy story. He wrote a whole fantasy epic to be the story for the language that he created.
SPEAKER_01:Um so the language came first?
SPEAKER_00:The language came first. Uh Tolkien used language creation as a coping mechanism. So during World War I, when he was in the trenches, he was writing Elvish as a way to process and cope with the world around him.
SPEAKER_03:Can you imagine being one of the soldiers around him? Yeah, what are you what are you doing? Oh, I'm writing my own language. All right, man. Like, let's just try not to get shot.
SPEAKER_00:Like other people are like writing their girlfriend and he's wow.
SPEAKER_01:Man, that is a true nerd. Yes, for sure, for sure. Wow. I've heard so I I I know I was listening to something not that long ago that he did um what is it? It had to do with like the the religious themes within Lord of the Rings and whether or not Tolkien was was purposeful in putting them there. And I guess there's been some debate as to whether or not that's the case. So I don't know, it was it was interesting to like hear and kind of um people dissect that a little bit and whether or not that is something that was intended or not. And I don't know where they landed on. I think I mean it's hard to say because guy's been dead for a while.
SPEAKER_00:So like I mean it's Tolkien is well known as coming out and saying that he hates allegories, right? Like he told C.S. Lewis that he thought Azon was stupid and heavy-handed, like because they were like sitting in a pub talking about their works, and he is like, no, that's like way too much. So he definitely wasn't trying to be allegorical. Um, however, his Catholic faith did form the framework for his whole life and worldview. And so I think sometimes just the way you process the world can't help but be a huge part of your fiction.
SPEAKER_03:Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Annalise, why don't we jump into like tell us about your introduction to Lord of the Rings then and like what what makes it so special to you?
SPEAKER_00:Sure. Um, so the first time I ever encountered Lord of the Rings, um, when I was a kid, my parents read to me a lot. So my mom read to me the Laura Engels Wilder series, she read to me the Chronicles of Narnia. Um, and so we started this when I was like in kindergarten. So by the time we finished Chronicles of Narnia, I was like coming up into like third grade. And my dad was like, I think she's ready for Lord of the Rings. I think we can do it. Um so the first my first encounter was my dad read me the entire series out loud, like chapter by chapter. Um in third grade. Yeah, in third grade. Uh and I was really into it. I remember there was this one time where I wanted to know what happened next. So I was reading ahead, and he's like, Stop, you can't read ahead. We're doing this together. He's like, if you want to read more, you can read the appendices. So he liked kicked me into the appendices. So I would stop reading ahead in the story. Uh and so that was my first like real encounter. Um, and so then the movies came out shortly after that, right? We were in like fourth grade, maybe.
SPEAKER_01:Probably. Yeah, because it was what was it? It was also around 2000. It was filmed in 99, I believe.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah. I so I was in eighth grade when the first one, 2000.
SPEAKER_01:No, that was 2005.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Is that it is? It was 2003, four, and five. I don't think so.
SPEAKER_00:I think it was before that.
SPEAKER_02:We need to produce the barn at Michael.
SPEAKER_00:Joe's gonna look it up. I just remember I was young enough that I was like legitimately afraid of the ring wraiths, right?
SPEAKER_02:Like I was like they were terrifying.
SPEAKER_00:I was afraid. My parents saw it before me. They're like, we need to pre-screen this because we don't know if it's gonna be too scary. And then I saw it in like the dollar theater in Toledo, like as a second one for that very first one. Um, and then we watched the other ones.
SPEAKER_02:I'm trying to think if I'm correct. 2001, 2002, 2003.
SPEAKER_00:I was gonna say, I was pretty sure it was for that idea, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um, because I do remember being the nerd that I was seeing it midnight premiere. That used to be a thing. Yeah. Uh because you're old.
SPEAKER_01:We've talked about missing that in another one of our episodes. We missed the midnight premiere in Phantom of Phantoms.
SPEAKER_02:With my nerd friends, we would go to B dubs over by Marcus Crossroads.
SPEAKER_00:Where your parents dropped you off because you were in eighth grade.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I guess. One of the parents were like the chaperones, we would get, you know, schwasted on Mountain Dew, and then we'd go watch Lord of the Rings. And man, yeah, what an experience.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So, and like with the once we got the copies, we didn't have for my dad got the extended edition as like a gift. Um, but then we only had the theatrical release for the other two for a long time. So I actually didn't see an extended edition for the second two movies until I was like late high school.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I don't think I knew that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but I used to watch them a lot. Like I remember distinctly this one time. This was when Lydia was in half day kindergarten, so I could probably figure out the year.
SPEAKER_02:Her youngest sister. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But uh I stayed home sick and I was like, okay, if I go downstairs like as soon as my mom leaves to take Lydia to school and I put in the movie right as soon as they leave, I can watch the whole thing before they come back. Nice because I used to watch them every year. Um, my but then I first saw the extended editions, like my senior year of high school. I had some friends and they like we watched one every night in the summer, like right after that we graduated.
SPEAKER_01:And I so I I have a question here. Did they come out at the same time? Was it the extended edition? They were released one year after the other, yeah. December every year. Was it so was it like the the fellowship came out and then the next year both the extended edition and two? Are you saying no?
SPEAKER_00:The theatricals came out first, and then like later they can't release the extended editions one per year.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Okay, like a couple years after all they were all done. Like kind of like an extended thing of like, oh, like you're missing Lord of the Rings? Well, here's a new way to watch it. Like, exactly, exactly. Oh, yeah. Did you miss Tom Bombado in the movie?
SPEAKER_00:Well, you still like that again. Unless you watch Rings of Power, which we'll come back to later.
SPEAKER_01:Oh man. No, that well, shoot. I I feel like that can can bring us to a quote. Like, we might as well just address it since we are already talking about. Sorry, I didn't mean to jump the gun.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:This we're we're kind of jumping ahead to the hot takes, but I I want to I want to hear what is the definitive version of the movie to you.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, I do have a bit of a hot take on this. So I, as myself, would only re-watch it extended, right? I've done two full day like back to back to back extended movie marathons. Um yeah. Yeah so once with Joe and then once with my friend Bethany before, uh, who I shout out to Bethany, famously had her Aragorn Aragorn only supercut of Return of the King that she used to watch every day when she came home from school. And she only watched the Aragorn scenes and it was 45 minutes long.
SPEAKER_03:Wow, that is fascinating.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, it's excellent. I don't know if we're gonna have time to talk about Aragorn Thirst Trap, but that's another thing that we really can as the only woman here to talk about the female experience.
SPEAKER_02:Heterosexual males and Aragorn.
SPEAKER_03:It's hey, we're okay with it. Yeah, I like it. Because it used to be like this is a thing that I know like I've I've seen like again as millennials growing up. Like when you're growing up, it was Legolas, was the thirst trap. Yeah. And then you hit a point when you're an adult, and then it's Aragorn is the desired man. Like, yeah. It'll be Phaeodin.
SPEAKER_04:But I should get older.
SPEAKER_02:Green a worm tongue.
SPEAKER_00:See, that's like my first get out from the podcast. But what I will say is that if you have never seen them before, I do not recommend watching extended editions on the first watch because it's too much, right? If it's your first encounter of the story, it's just way too long. Like if someone's like, hey, come watch this movie with me, it's four hours long. I would be like, absolutely not. Yeah. So that's what I say, you know, and you don't want to marathon it. You want to watch them, you know, maybe three consecutive weekends, spread it out.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Because then you can even split them up like multiple sessions per day, that as opposed to sitting down for 12 straight hours or however long, like all three is. Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00:So I like missed the end of Fellowship of the Ring because I was out like cutting tea sandwiches. Because I was doing 11C's, I think, or maybe luncheon. I can't remember.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. For that iteration, if you don't mind me sharing, sure go for it. It's your friend. Yeah. Uh our good friends, Aaron and Vicky Widmar. Um, they have this really cool like in-home theater, and they've um they've done this with a couple other movie franchises, but we split up into is it six or seven?
SPEAKER_00:It was six, one disc.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, one disc per each of the extended movies. And so it was like we'd watch one disc and then it'd be like um We literally started at 7 a.m.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I believe that. So it was like um breakfast, uh 110s, second breakfast, yeah. It was breakfast, second breakfast, yeah. And for each after each disc, we had a different couple prepare No, it was individuals because I don't think you were helping me with the two sandwiches.
SPEAKER_00:I think you had a different meal. Or maybe you just didn't help.
SPEAKER_03:I'm kind of jealous. I you know who just watched it. No, I'd love to do it. That yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But it was so cool because it was like each person got to contribute a different food uh like platform. Of course. Yeah, obviously.
SPEAKER_03:Someone made lemmus bread.
SPEAKER_02:Lempus actually, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It was like, I think did they do the shortbread version? I think so. Yeah, but I think that was for tea.
SPEAKER_02:Our friend um Rojo, um, he actually is like a very accomplished chef.
SPEAKER_00:Like professionally.
SPEAKER_02:He did um He did dinner. He did dinner and we're like this is the best meal I've ever had. And he was like, Oh, I just threw this together. And I was like, shut up, Rojo.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I feel like most of those do supper as dessert because who's eating like two big meals back to back, you know?
SPEAKER_02:So hobbits.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Have you seen the thing that's about the science behind that about hobbits? So you think that like bigger animals, like smaller animals naturally have faster metabolisms, right? That's why mice like literally can't stop eating or they die. So they like did the math with the size of hobbits and the speed of their metabolism, they would like have to literally eat that often.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like if you take it like correspondingly, yeah, it's cool. I don't think Tolkien meant that. I think it out.
SPEAKER_01:The science of Lord of the Rings. There you go. Oh man. So I'm gonna I'm gonna bring us back for a second because I surprised Ben with this. Did you know that Peter Jackson defines the theatrical releases as the version of Lord of the Rings?
SPEAKER_00:I think I did know that. But I mean it makes sense because that's sorry, I keep touching that. That's the version that he released, right? So he chose to cut the scenes that he cut.
SPEAKER_01:I just surprised Ben with it. Ben was like, there's no way he actually said that.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, it does my boy Faramir even more dirty than the movies do, which they already do him dirty. Like that's that's my actual hot take, if you want to hear it, is my personal opinions on Fairmere. I've told I've explained it to Joe. He's had to hear about it. But anyway, I read.
SPEAKER_01:Explain it to me here. Because he's not in it in the in unless you watch the extended edition of the movie. No, he's in it. There's much. He's in it.
SPEAKER_00:Fairmere is a shadow of himself in the movies. Well and truly, right? So this whole thing where he like carts Frodo and Sam off to Osgileath and he is like, No, I'm gonna keep it for myself, does not happen in the books. No, he's always a good person. He always sees the importance of the quest, and he's like, How can I help you? What can I do to help you along on your journey?
SPEAKER_03:He truly was like a hero in his own right.
SPEAKER_00:He is, he is.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, just because he wasn't part of the fellowship, but yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:He is a hero in that he enables them to keep going. Yep. And then he goes back to this whole suicide quest at Osgeliath.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it's so much more heroic instead of him like bringing them back, and then he's like, Oh, never mind, you guys can go. Which also that I think is only in the extended editions, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, whereas Boromir was corrupted, Faramir uh was like, No, I'm going to support you. I like the value of not getting so close to it that he could it's about humility, truly.
SPEAKER_00:It is.
SPEAKER_01:I guess I don't know what scenes they eliminated, or like which ones are in the extended and aren't because I know that he's I'm fuzzy on it myself.
SPEAKER_02:So there's the scene, I think, with Gollum at the waterfall. That's in every version.
SPEAKER_01:It is okay. Um I was thinking I know in the extended versions, there's definitely a lot more of him dealing with his his dad liking Boromir a lot more. Like I feel like that's in the extended edition.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and that's for sure a lot more. Yeah, yeah. That's for sure like a key component. But I remember when I went to watch the extended editions of the second two movies for the first time, like summer after my senior year, and I was talking about how I was really excited because we're coming up to Faramir, and Faramir's like my favorite, and my friend Ben is like, you're gonna be so upset. Because he's like, they destroy him in the movies, and then I watched it and I was like, oh.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Man, well, we've we've kind of hit on some of the things that we wanted to already. You kind of hit on what was so significant about Lord of the Rings for sure.
SPEAKER_03:Um, and kind of a little bit of our starter pack, but well, but okay, so yeah, if you were gonna have someone start though, would you start like so you said obviously like theatrical release versus extended if you're gonna watch the movies, but would you start with the movies or the books?
SPEAKER_00:I would start with the Hobbit book.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, the Hobbit. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:The Hobbit is The Hobbit is the easiest read. Sure. It introduces you to the world without overwhelming you, right? Because what's everybody's number one complaint about reading Lord of the Rings? It's just walking in trees, right? It's just walking in trees. And the Hobbit is condensed, it's simpler, it's still got that epic nobility, which they lose in the movies, but um you have other questions. I keep jumping the gun, so I'll stop. Um but it's just sort of like a bite-sized picture, you know? And then yeah, of course, if you're not a book person, I also am like, no shame if you haven't read it. Like, there's definitely series that I have watched and haven't read. Like it's just, you know, you have your time, you have your interests, you do what you can't. Um but I think that Lord of the Rings, I'm not gonna pretend it's easy because it is a challenging read. Like I said at the beginning about pacing, right? You have to be the kind of person that can appreciate epic fantasy. And if that's not you, if you want your reading to be lighter and snappier, then it's gonna, it's gonna be a little bit of work, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, it's worth it for sure. But it's especially for the books for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, those are they those can be a slog for some people.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I remember my mom, so my mom's like an OG Lord of the Rings fan, right? Like she read them in the 70s when she was in high school when they were like not popular yet, when they were still kind of like undiscovered. We're talking like Frodo lives badges, you know, like original.
SPEAKER_02:And um shout out, Gail.
SPEAKER_00:She had to, yeah, but she had a glossary that she had like handwritten with all the names and stuff that she had to track in order to follow the story. Like sure.
SPEAKER_01:It's challenging. Yeah. I think my introduction was definitely fellowship for sure. I don't think I took I I don't think I touched The Hobbit and or any of the books until after I'd seen the first movie. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Is that the were you guys well you yeah, so I do remember reading The Hobbit when I was like middle school, um well before the movies came out, because I'm so much older than you guys.
SPEAKER_00:You're not actually that much older than them.
SPEAKER_02:Uh and that I like I kind of forget that that was because it just got overshadowed by watching the movies, but I do remember reading The Hobbit, and I was like, oh yeah, these are like part of that same universe as The Hobbit. And um but yeah, like there's some really cool illustrated versions of The Hobbit that are just absolutely beautiful. Like I remember reading one when I was in Colorado, like it was my second or third reread, but I was like, this is really cool. And I 100% agree. I think starting with the hobbit gets you into that world, but uh kind of what's your whistle for Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I will say the Hobbit is a heavier read than you expect. If you're expecting it to fit our modern definition of children's fiction, usually like three of the main characters don't die at the end in our modern definition of children's fiction.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And uh it's kind of devastating because you're like, oh no, this is like real war.
SPEAKER_01:Well, at the end though, too, because that's the wild thing, is that like, yes, some of the characters die at the end, but it's not in the same way that you would expect. Like, I don't know. I feel like in modern literature, it's kind of made more of a bigger deal in like in the end of yeah, exactly. Like it kind of happens off screen, so to say, like you know, Bilbo's being told this story afterwards, and like this all these people died, by the way. Seriously. And you're like, what? Yeah, it is like that.
SPEAKER_00:And I don't know, maybe if that reflects back to his experiences with war. Like, yeah, you know, you didn't necessarily see the casualties, you just come with the casualty list and you're like, oh my gosh, you know, yeah, good.
SPEAKER_03:I never thought about that way.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Definitely warns three movies, I'll tell you that much.
SPEAKER_00:Five. However, many there are.
SPEAKER_01:Oh man. Well, so we're gonna take a quick break here in a minute, but before we do, I think it's good to end on this. So if you had to convince somebody to to to take part in the fandom of Lord of the Rings, give them your elevator pitch. We like to keep it, you know, minute to 90 seconds. What's your elevator pitch to try and convince somebody to be part of the fandom?
SPEAKER_00:Sure. I mean, I've already said a lot of it, but I think it comes down to the foundation of modern fantasy, right? Like, I think that it is important. I think it comes down to perfectly flawless world building in a way that I think is unrivaled by anybody else. And I think what's most compelling to me is the hope, right? Like so much of what we read is so jaded and so pessimistic. It's everything's morally gray. And Lord of the Rings is like a glass of water in that kind of landscape, right? Where the attitude is hope, where good does triumph over evil, where ordinary people can make important and good choices and make an impact.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, beautiful. That is well said. The most poetic elevator pitch I've ever heard. But I love it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, we're gonna take a quick break and we will be back to have uh a little bit longer conversation and ask some of these questions that we've been dying to ask of Annalise. So uh we'll be right back. And we are back still talking with Annalise about Lord of the Rings. Joe is is enthralled by the music that we've got playing right now. The ring theme. Go ahead and bring that down. All right, let's dive into our so this is our fandom culture discussion. Always a fan favorite when you think about it, right? Yeah, so just there. Yeah. Basically, what are you talking about?
SPEAKER_03:So for our audience, it is very late at night. It is late at night. Again, recording back-to-back episodes. I think Nick's losing it a little bit. A little bit.
SPEAKER_01:I'm a little slap happy, you know. I'm having a good time.
SPEAKER_03:Off camera between our breaks, we have just been talking non-stop about more nerdy stuff. So we're we're happy to pick it back up, though.
SPEAKER_01:It's been fun. Um, well, let's let's kind of dive into our a good question here. What's outside of books and movies, is there any Lord of the Rings content that you enjoy?
SPEAKER_00:Sure. So um I'm definitely a costume person, right? Like I love it. I love making them, I love wearing them. Um, and so obviously Lord of the Rings costumes are iconic. The just sort of like aesthetic of the Hobbit is something that I feel like has branched out way past even people who are big fans of the movie. So, like I it's silly, but I love I love the Hobbit girly that exists on the internet, you know, like we wear the little vests and the skirts and like go have picnics, and I love it. Like I'm here for it. I really want to make a more hobbit-y costume because I have some bits and pieces, but I don't have like a true, a true one. So Joe talked about being Bill Joe Baggins. Of course, there are like there's like two female hobbits, right? So there's like Rosie.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:And then there's like Labilia Saxville Baggins. And I really want to make a Labilia Saxville Baggins costume. And if I ever go to a long expected party, just like chase Joe around and drive him insane and steal his spoons the entire time. Because that's good.
SPEAKER_03:This is is this Grumpy Hobbit's wife that we've got to do. Yeah, the ones that are trying to steal his house, right?
SPEAKER_00:Like Saxville packages. They're second cousins, they really wish he was dead so that they can and the end of the Hobbit, they actually did move into his house because he was gone for like over a year.
SPEAKER_03:That makes sense, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and so everyone thought he was.
SPEAKER_01:They very much resent brother like. Man, that's funny. That that kind of brings that's funny that we've been talking about the the lack of female characters. Have you seen the video that is if the horse?
SPEAKER_00:No the only line between two female characters where the little girl's like, mama.
SPEAKER_01:If Lord of the Rings was only When two female characters talk to each other, that is a video.
SPEAKER_03:So yeah, so the Lord of the Lings movies definitely don't pass the back to hell test.
SPEAKER_00:No, for sure, for sure. I I love talking about this because it's such a complicated issue. And people like to simplify it, right? Because people like to compare it to contemporary fiction. Um, and it's not, and so if you try to expect people in the 19 teens up through like, you know, the 60s, 50s, 60s when they actually came out to act and think and believe like people living in 2025, that is an unreasonable expectation. So in Tolkien's experience, right, his experience with war, which is so much shapes the whole thing, there were not women serving on the front line.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so if you think of this story truly, it is a war story where, except for Ewen, who like sneaks her way in, it's sort of in the tradition of Mulan and all these other traditional female warriors, there are not women serving on the front line. And also real women too, right? Like there were, uh, I'm not gonna go on a tangent. There were lots of examples of real women disguising themselves as men as soldiers in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, collecting military pensions. It's cool, but um so this is the world that he's living in and he's writing and right. Do I wish there was more female representation? A hundred percent. And this is where I think that modern adaptations can do some good of taking a modern vision without leaving his true spirit and premise of it. Um now, an example, I love that the Hobbit added in another female character. I hate that they made her kind of stupid and forced this weird elf dwarf romance, which completely like so in Lord of the Rings, right? There are like two elf human romances, period. Ever. Right? And there's the one in mythology, and then there's Arwen and Aragorn. Yeah, and he's not even like 100% human because he's like super long life. So every modern version wants to cheapen this by throwing in their own cross-racial relationship. Scandalous. I know. And so I'm like, you just I just think it's unnecessary. I think the one in The Hobbit is dumb. I think the one in Rings of Power is less dumb, but still kind of dumb.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I was gonna say, like, Rings of Power definitely throws in like that was kind of, I mean, people were accusing it of being too woke because they were so conscious of representation and pulling in additional. The women dwarfs didn't have to be.
SPEAKER_00:No, listen, listen, they actually gave her a little bit of sidebarns in the second season. I thought it was a really nice touch. Um, but listen, I have I have multiple thoughts because I do want to speak in response to that. Yeah. Because I don't want to sound like I'm trying to say, oh, this is woke and you're blah, blah, blah, this pushed me out of my comfort zone, whatever. Uh, what I'm saying is that if you want Lord of the Rings to reflect Tolkien's experience of war in World War One, you cannot have women on the front lines. However, I think there is room for other female characters, characters more like Galadriel, characters who are counselors, who are advisors, who are political leaders, and those things all make sense in his history of the world, right? There were female queens. There were, you know, and so this is a way that I think female characters can be added in organically in a way that makes sense. I think if you're doing something like Rings of Power and you're kind of going off into your own version of story, the story anyway, I think go for it, right? Yeah. Add the women. And I honestly think that the people who are saying it's too woke because they had a better representation of skin tones are just all the way wrong. And if they decided to go and reboot Lord of the Rings and make half the characters of different races, I would think that's awesome because that is something that is not, you know, there were people of all races fighting in World War I and there are people, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_04:Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So that I think is a hundred percent true to the story. I think it just wasn't his experience, right? He was like an English guy from the countryside, and you always create the story that you imagine. Why my best analogue for this that I thought of is that when Jane Austen was writing her novels, she never once includes a scene where two men are speaking and a woman is not present.
SPEAKER_04:That makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:At any point in a single Jane Austen novel because she's I don't know how men speak when there isn't a woman present, and so I can't physically represent it. And I think it's kind of similar to that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, that's uh well said and well spoken, honestly, because you've got more to say about it and expressed it better than I possibly could, but I love that.
SPEAKER_03:Well, again, I think it's her perspective. Absolutely. We could never have this perspective on it, and so I appreciate that for sure. Yeah. I mean, okay, so we we started to touch on it. What's kind of your hot take, like, or your just your take in general on Rings of Power? Because I know it's it's such a controversial subject within this fandom of, you know, like, is like uh is it watchable? Is it you know part of canon? Are they going too far off? Like, what what are your takes on Rings of Power?
SPEAKER_00:For sure, right? So I think it's like when they made the newer Star Wars trilogy, and everyone's like, I hate it because I didn't watch it when I was a kid. And like that's really what it is. Now, Rings of Power does have some problems, right? The pacing is wildly uneven.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:And so in season one, there's like episode, I think it's seven, when not doom explodes for the first time and there's a lava. That is like 90% of the action for the entire season. And so, like, I think there's really reasonable care um critiques about pacing in the show. I think there's some critiques that can be made about character development. They sometimes are like, here's a character, and then they just like drop them and ignore them. They're trying to try and tell too many stories at once. I think the complaints about Galadriel feeling different are wrong because I think that a per a woman in her 20s is gonna feel and think and act differently than a woman in her 50s. And if you're saying, well, you didn't act like she doesn't act like she did in her 50s, that's like, well, of course not.
SPEAKER_03:Well, then it's also not just 20s and 50s, it's centuries.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's their like rough analog. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But like I'm just saying, even more change could happen. Like that's a great thing. I've never thought about elves, like how many different personalities they go through throughout their whole lives. Like, yeah, right?
SPEAKER_00:Like I've had like, I don't know, at least three different like true, like different eras of myself, you know, and so I I'm only 33.
SPEAKER_02:So I brought out the worst inner.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, I think that so yeah, some of the critique I think is valid, some of the creak I think is not, right? You know, like having people of all races, awesome, love it. Black dwarf or black well, black dwarf and black elf, great, fantastic, right? Um, hearing the actor that plays, oh my gosh, I forgot his name.
SPEAKER_02:Um the head elf.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, no, no. I'm talking about the the fighter elf, the one that's black. Oh, talking about the power of I'm not gonna remember it, but the power of being able to portray this role as a kid growing up and loving Lord of the Rings and not seeing himself represented. Like I think it's great, right? The actress that plays Disa is one of my favorite characters on the show.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think like in in the original movies, like all the African American actors were orcs.
SPEAKER_00:They're orcs, like yes, they most of the orcs were Maori, and they're all in heavy makeup, and you can't even tell. There's this one lady that played like so many of the orcs, and she's like a Maori lady, and she's like badass, and she's great. But yeah, they were all, and there's that whole so there's a whole racial component there where they're where the orcs are the black ones and uh so right, and so breaking free from that, yes, I think is super important. Yeah, so yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Wow. We're getting deep into some controversial things. No, I we are we love it. Like, yeah, we're we're happy to not just like last with Bailey, he was talking about clicking nuts together.
SPEAKER_01:So, like fandom of fandom classics right there.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so um, Annalise, what are some fan-made creators or you know, other things out there? Because I can think of, you know, we've we've talked about Nick, you can play the clip. I was having queued up. Um, they're taking the Hobbits Isengard. Things that people have done with all sorts of Hobbits toys and God, God, God, God, God. I'm taking the Hobbit's toys and God, God, so nostalgic. Any other like fan creators or fan-made things out there that you like really appreciate in this fandom?
SPEAKER_00:Sure. I mean, the queen of the Hobbit Girly is Rachel Maxie. Um, YouTuber, Instagrammer, general influencer, phenomenal costume and makeup artist. Um, and sort of just like the peak of that aesthetic and that vibe. Um trying to think of anybody specifically. I mean, oh yeah, Joe's friends that have their own podcast um are sort of creating a subculture there.
SPEAKER_03:Um and what's the name of that? Just to shout it out?
SPEAKER_02:Um so the audio drama that he's created is called The Red Book of Westmarch, and his um podcast is called An Unexpected Podcast. Um, and I kind of uh I'm featured in a couple episodes here and there as Bill Joe Baggins. Nice um again, kind of feeling like a poser of like I've read the last chapter of Return of the King, and that's about it. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_03:Hold on, hold on. We need to touch on that. Why is that all you've read?
SPEAKER_02:Because they asked me to be there. They did a chapter by chapter review. So that was the episode. And they were like, we would like you to be there for the very last one. And I said, Great. I haven't really I've read half of fellowship like when I was in middle school, and that's it. And they're like, Can you read the last chapter? I was like, sure. So I've read half of the Fellowship of the Ring and then the last chapter of Return of the King.
SPEAKER_03:And so two book ends, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But you know, it's um they've got an awesome thing going, it's been really successful, they've had a lot of fun, and very much like this podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Also went to the same university as we did.
SPEAKER_02:So it's oh yeah, yeah. MVNU We're we're starting podcasts. Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Uh it's not just MVNU exclusive, let's be real. Like everyone's making a podcast now.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, uh, it it's I mean, as this episode clearly shows, like this is a fan base that brings people together, and it's so cool to be part of that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely. Love that. Well, I think it'd be a good time for to jump into Nick's uh would you rather section. Sure. There were some questions for Annalise.
SPEAKER_01:I do love these, but before we do, because I think that it's important, we were talking about content, right? Oh, yes. And I I have a really nice clip here that I just I just love and think is hilarious here.
SPEAKER_04:Ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, the ring, ring, ring, ring, that rings, ring.
SPEAKER_01:It's still going. It's not even halfway there. So this is the first I've heard the test.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, you were in here reading the.
SPEAKER_04:Rings and rings in the movie.
SPEAKER_03:Every time I say rings in the food in the movie.
SPEAKER_04:I do love it. I do love a makeup.
SPEAKER_03:Love it. Love creators out there with that amount of time and commitment to go through and clip out every single one. Ring or phone or four. Yeah, ring, ring, ring.
SPEAKER_00:I did have one more piece of content I just remembered. So they created a Lord of the Rings musical, which I have like a mixed feelings about.
SPEAKER_03:In like Chicago that they premiered it in the world.
SPEAKER_00:But it was actually um it was actually a revival. So the original show is in England, maybe in like the 2010s, and then they revived it in Chicago and Sydney. Some of the songs sound very British Broadway to me, right? Sure. So they're they're very West End. If you know that vocal style of a West Einger female belt, sounds a lot like that. However, the Hobbit songs are beautiful, and there's a song you really should check out called Now and For Always. That is when Sam and Frodo are talking about like when they tell our story, and then Sam's like, Tell me the story of the ring, and then Frodo's like, No, I want to hear about Sam the Brave. It's that moment in a song, and it's absolutely gorgeous. Now and for always. Now and for always. That sounds amazing.
SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna have to look that up. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:The guy who helped write the music, K A Raman, uh also did he's worked on a lot of um like movies based out of India. Like the most famous one that I think most American audience would know is Slum Dog Millionaire. And so he came from that background and then contributed to this musical, and it's mind-blowing.
SPEAKER_00:And the the Indian elements are cool. Like you can hear it in the the the orchestral spots parts, especially. Yeah, you can hear that influence. Kind of like some semitone sort of stuff, or like yeah, like Yeah, yeah, in the way that um like the way the melodic line is and some things like that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Nice.
SPEAKER_01:Well, let's jump into would you rather? This is gonna be fun. Okay. Would you rather spend a year in the Shire or a week in Rivendell?
SPEAKER_00:Shire for sure, right? Like the Shire is Tolkien's idealization of British countryside life. And I think who doesn't wish they could go back to a simpler time in the past, right? Oh yeah. At least for a little bit, and having that sort of just pastoral farmland, friends, family, community, like it's great.
SPEAKER_03:And to live in a hole.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. They're cozy.
SPEAKER_01:That is true. Would you rather have Gollum as a travel buddy or Saruman is your neighbor?
unknown:Gollum.
SPEAKER_01:Excuse me.
SPEAKER_00:No, see, I say I say Saruman because I mean, first off, he was Rohan's neighbor for a long time and didn't do anything. That's true. Um, it wasn't really until the end that it turned super bad. Um, whereas Gollum has kind of always been super backstabby.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, kinda. That is true. Would you rather carry the one ring to Mordor or guard the gates at Helm's Deep? Because you're probably, I mean, you're probably dying either way. Like, that's the bottom line.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna say Helm's Deep, right? Like the path to Mordor is so lonely and so isolated. It's just him and Sam, and sometimes just him, right? Helms Deep, you've got your squad, you've got your whole your whole community with you. So that's what I'm gonna say.
SPEAKER_01:Nice. And one does not simply walk into Mordor. We don't have that one. Man, I wish we would have gotten that soundbite. Shoot.
SPEAKER_00:It's more of a visual image, I feel like.
SPEAKER_01:Uh would you rather face off against a Balrog or a ring Wraith?
SPEAKER_00:I mean ring Wraith, right? Because I am no man.
SPEAKER_01:Like nice. I love that.
SPEAKER_02:I feel like you have better chances against a Wraith than you would a Balrog. Probably.
SPEAKER_01:For sure, right?
SPEAKER_00:I think only only Gandalf can take on the Balrog.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Would you rather train as a Ranger under Aragorn or learn magic under Gandalf?
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So I don't think that magic in Lord of the Rings is learnable. True.
SPEAKER_01:But it's like we're gonna get deep into lore here. I know, right?
SPEAKER_00:It's it's not, it's innate. So like I don't think that that's even possible, but it's gonna work that way.
SPEAKER_03:Would you rather have magic or train as a ranger?
SPEAKER_00:I still say as a ranger. Okay. With the magic, there's this responsibility of making sure everything stays where it's supposed to be.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Gotta keep the world in order to do it. Exactly, right?
SPEAKER_00:Like for real.
SPEAKER_03:And there were only like what seven wizards?
SPEAKER_02:Eastar, I think.
SPEAKER_03:So Eastar, if we're gonna get real technical, I'm gonna pretend like I know.
SPEAKER_02:Joe Watches Rings of Power. No, because the the notorious the blue wizards.
SPEAKER_00:I think there's only five.
SPEAKER_02:There's the two blue, there's Radagast, there's Sauron, there's Gandalf. I think that's it.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. All right. Well, let's go ahead and keep it rolling here with some more questions. These aren't would you rather, but I've got one that uh I would love to. I just lost my place there on my sheet. Um, if you could add one thing to the trilogy of movies, what would it be?
SPEAKER_00:Other than fixing Fairmere.
SPEAKER_01:Um, that's a good one.
SPEAKER_03:No, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um it's been a long time since I've reread, but uh Arwen's brothers were like completely written now, and I think that they were a much more important part of the books, and this is why I need to do a reread. I think they kind of, and but then I can't even fault them too much because I think that that's where like almost everything that Arwen does in the movies was actually her brothers, and they just sort of like shifted it over. So, like, you know, I can't be upset about more female representation as little as there is, but uh that I think is something that's important. Um, I mean, obviously Tom Bombadil because Tom Bombadil's a great.
SPEAKER_01:It's not adding Tom Bombadil.
SPEAKER_00:I agree with his choice, right? Like, I mean, time is time, and Tom Bombadil is debatably a self-insert anyway. And so I mean, I love that he's in Rings of Power. It's a lot of fun. I love the song, but honestly, how much of it is that I love that Tom Bombadil song?
SPEAKER_02:Rufus Wainwright.
SPEAKER_00:God man, it's so good. It's so good.
SPEAKER_03:Oh man. Okay, so we've got two similar questions here that I I'm gonna kind of merge together. So is there a line from either the movies or the books or like a quote that you think about the most in real life or you find yourself saying a lot?
SPEAKER_00:Potatoes.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, potatoes.
SPEAKER_00:See, I was never I never did that one as much. That was Joe's thing for sure. And what about their legs?
SPEAKER_02:They don't need them.
SPEAKER_00:I think pretty much any time we eat potatoes, it's just potatoes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Boil them, mash them, stick them in a stew. Exactly. Okay, well, uh uh, this brings up a fan-made thing that I showed Nick recently that I love. Have you seen there's a guy who dubs over the orcs but talks in a normal voice? I love that. Oh, that's great. Oh man, that's funny. Yeah, that's a clip that we'll we'll add a link to, but yeah, the hundreds are. I do think about the meats back on the menu, boys.
SPEAKER_01:A lot.
SPEAKER_02:More than I should like controversy of like orcs know what a menu is. Why would an orc know what a menu is? Obviously, it's familiar with meat, but like, and Peter Jackson commented on this once and he was like, you're thinking way too hard.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, there's like a whole deeper discussion about that though, right? So, like in Mistborn, which we talked about before, there's this part where Brandon Sanderson says something is like a hat trick, and I'm like, excuse me, do we have hockey in Mistborn World now?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like, you have to either accept the modern metaphors or you have to just reject them, but it's definitely a choice.
SPEAKER_01:Just move past it. Yeah. Well, I got I got one more here, and I gotta make sure I use this sound bite, but my other one.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, for sure. Classic.
SPEAKER_03:Classic, also classic.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, any son's just a fail a student.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. I mean, that is kind of what comes through your mind a little bit as a teacher. I'm not gonna lie. Oh man.
SPEAKER_02:This is why I'm not a teacher.
SPEAKER_01:Oh man. Um, let's see. Oh, here's what uh what moment on screen like gave you the biggest chills or biggest emotions?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, this is the one that I wrote it down. So, right, like Holmes Deep is one of the most emotional parts of the movies for sure. Um, and the whole thing with um look to my coming at the first light on the fifth day at dawn, look to the east. And Gandalf comes over the hill. Oh, yeah, and this the Don and his staff in the front of the charge, like it's just so powerful.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's good.
SPEAKER_01:Triumphant. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:On the third day.
SPEAKER_00:No, it's the fifth day.
SPEAKER_01:I just more imagery there.
SPEAKER_03:Yes for me. Every time I watch it, and at the very end, when Aragorn is passing the Hobbits, and you know, everyone's bowing to Aragorn and R1 after after they're married, and the Hobbits bow, and he says, No, no, no, no. You bow to no one. Like, I cannot watch that without tearing up. Yeah. That one always gets me.
SPEAKER_01:Man, I see I can't even say what it would be for because like I I I don't like to to me, at least emotional, like crying emotional. This this isn't a series that like gets me that way. Like emotional, kind of like you were saying, like the triumphantness of the moment. There's a lot of those moments, and I definitely agree with with that one for sure. What about you, Gio? You got you got an emotional moment that comes to mind.
SPEAKER_02:Man, I the older I get in the different stages of life that I go through, there's different things that like bring up emotions in you. And um I think near the very end, as Sam is having to say goodbye to Frodo and the other hobbits like Miriam Pippen are like they acknowledge that this is what's best for Frodo, but it is still a very painful thing for them to be like, we still want to be with you, but we also know that this is where you need to go. And there's just that that feeling of being like, okay, there's whether it's a friend that has to move away, or whether it's you having to say goodbye to somebody who maybe about to pass away, of that feeling of like you not being with me anymore is really hard, but I also know that it's things are going to be better for you. Um and that looks different for different uh situations and circumstances, but I think as I've gotten older, that's something that's resonated with me a lot more. Um and like I identify most with Pippin, and even just to see his character be like also crying and showing emotion of like that you know, us class clowns also can break down.
SPEAKER_01:And um well, his big scene there at the like towards towards the end of the movie there in the the hall, right? Singing the song, that was another big emotional moment. Oh yeah. Like that's a yeah, and I did think of one as you were talking. That was another one that like really got to me is is Sam's big monologue. Oh yeah at the in the third movie for sure.
SPEAKER_00:I can't carry the ring, but I can carry you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and Billy Boyd, the actor who plays Pippin, wrote the song in the hall.
SPEAKER_00:Pete Jackson was like, hey, it's a beautiful moment that everyone only remembers because of the tomatoes. Tomatoes, yes.
SPEAKER_02:A SM1.
SPEAKER_01:Man, that it kind of it does ruin like I don't know, it's that stark contrast. Oh yeah. Well, that and that's the point. Like, yes.
SPEAKER_00:It's supposed to feel gross, right? And the tomatoes are on purpose because they're blood, they're red like blood, and like absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:Well, especially, yeah, you can you have Fair Mirror leading the charge out into the fields, too. Okay, um, so the Lord of the Rings movies, iconic for props and costumes. Oh yeah. What do you feel like besides the ring, like is something that will always like just be symbolic of that movie, or just like what's the most a memorable piece of prop that you had that from?
SPEAKER_00:It's gotta be Air Gorn's sword for sure, right? And when um Elrond pulls it out and it's like and it's like right in front of his face, like yeah, not just that, you know, it's it has been remade, yes, but like the symbolic meaning in it, but it's also just a really cool sword, right?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, very true.
SPEAKER_00:So I don't know if you guys remember the the extended editions used to have this little like catalog in them. Yes. Where you could like buy different crops.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I've got well, I've got Aragorn's sword and like I should have gotten it out. I've got it back over there. I should have grabbed it. Trivia question.
SPEAKER_02:What is the name of this?
SPEAKER_03:Narcil.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I wrote it down because I knew that that might come up.
SPEAKER_02:The shards of Narsil.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and then it's well, it's sorry, Narsil, and then isn't it is it Andoril? Yeah, I think so. Andoril once it's reforged. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I gotta do it. They renamed the sword when it was.
SPEAKER_03:They did because it's kind of a new sword now. Shards of Narcil, because it wasn't a full sword anymore, so they had to remake it.
SPEAKER_02:I didn't know how to do it. Isildor was the one that originally wielded it and chopped it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No, I knew I knew that part. I just didn't know that they remade renamed the sword after it's a lot of the first thing. Lord of the Rings is a book series. Thank you, Joe. Oh man. Well, um, one thing, I mean, we've talked a lot about hot takes already, but I did want to see if there was anything else that stands out in your mind at this point that like would be a hot take that you know, just directly we haven't necessarily brought up, I guess. And that's okay if the answer is no.
SPEAKER_00:I was just I feel like we've we've hit a lot of them, right? I think all of Arwen's dresses are super lame.
SPEAKER_01:The costuming hot take. Fair.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Awens are amazing, though. Like medieval inspired, it's beautiful. Arwins are just really early 2000s inspired.
SPEAKER_03:Look at when the movie was made.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Brett McKenzie should have been in more of the movies.
SPEAKER_03:We were talking about Flight of the Concords and Brett McKenzie off off camera, which again, like it's a whole thing we could go into, but we won't. Maybe that's an episode we need to do. Flight of the Concords. Oh, I'll bring you back to that, Joe.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we'll do another double decker. We'll do Mistborn and then uh Flat of the Concords.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Well, I was gonna say, because we we've had we've talked about the Hobbit movies a little bit, but not a lot. Yeah. So in your we don't talk about them. Because we don't talk about Bruno. So are they worth watching or are they best left behind?
SPEAKER_00:Like the first one is Joe's good Joe feels the same way. Yeah. The first one's pretty good. I saw the first one and I was like, yeah, I love it. It has the songs, right? I'm I'm a sucker for Tolkien songs. Um, and there's some great songs Misty Mountain song, the Bump the Knife song. They're really good. Um, I love Richard Armitage. Um, I, you know, I think I've liked his work for a while. Um, but they just really started with the other movies, they just drew it out so much, right? Like this is one book.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It could be two movies, maybe, but but four? Yeah like four, four. There's four. I'm pretty sure there's four.
SPEAKER_03:No, because it's just I thought it was just the three unexpected journey, Desolation of Smog and Five Marshall. It felt like four. The third one for sure. The third one felt like four.
SPEAKER_00:And that weird like video game fight sequence where they're like jumping across ice blocks. Like, what is happening? Yeah. Though I do love the whole thing where Bard of Lake Town looks more like Orlando Bloom than Orlando Bloom. Looks like Orlando Bloom. So true. It's so true.
SPEAKER_02:That actor, um, I'm blanking on his name, but he is a phenomenal actor. Like he also played Gaston in the highly acclaimed Luke Evans? No, no. Uh uh, I don't know. Maybe it is Luke Evans. He played Gaston in the live action Beauty and the Beast. Yeah. Um, really, really talented actor. Yeah. Um, and he that was like the kind of silver lining to those later movies. That's true.
SPEAKER_00:He was really good. There's two things that really dragged down the Hobbit, the Hobbit trilogy. Um, one is they stretched it out too much, added in all this random extra fluff. Two is the awful CGI, right? Like there are like the whole where they're going in the barrels down the river looks like a video game. Yeah. When they're like there's so many scenes that it look when they're in the mountain and there's all of the goblins, they it's just such bad. And you compare that to the orcs in full prosthetics, and then you've got these really bad CGI goblins.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, so you're saying it's two CGI, like they reminded me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, two CGI, and the CGI is not good, in my opinion. Right? Like, what is when I talked about the original series being the peak of practical effects, the bigotures, the massive build like full scale, or you know, massive to scale models of Rivendell and all these places, and it pays off. Yeah, it feels real. The costumes, the set, the props, it all feels so real. And in the Hobbit, it feels cheap.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's true. Because well, I mean, okay, peak of uh practical effects, yeah, and then there's the two parts that uh Legolas does that are CGI that I despise in the original trilogy. The jump onto the um elephant, the jump onto the elephant, yeah, that's sliding down the trunk or whatever, and then when he swings up onto the horse. Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because it wasn't physically possible.
SPEAKER_03:It's not physically possible, and so it just looks so awkward, and I'm like, Yeah, he's an elf and he can do all this stuff. Yeah, whatever.
SPEAKER_00:Have you seen speaking of elves, the whole thing where um the when um Legolas is like, I see them and this is what they look like, and they someone was like, with the curvature of the earth, it is not physically possible to see that far. So their current theory is that elves, because they can still sail to Valinor, they exist from when the world is still flat, that they still see the world as if it is flat. That's cool. And that's how he's able to see like five leagues away or whatever.
SPEAKER_03:That's funny.
SPEAKER_00:Apparently, my whole Instagram is just like people explaining Lord of the Rings with science.
SPEAKER_01:I love it though. Oh man. So, and we've also touched a lot on the rings of power. So I want to know ultimately, in your opinion, does it help the series? Like, does it help the fandom or hurt the fandom?
SPEAKER_00:It hurts the fandom. Really? The controversy, the controversy is ugly, and I don't think many new people are coming in through it. No, I think I not at least the only people that I know that watch it and like it are already fans, and they're like, like, I understand that okay, so the Cimreleon is like a textbook, right? That's why none of us have read it. A history book because it reads like a textbook, and so you can't make a textbook into a movie. So for sure, you're gonna need to adapt and change things. And so I'm here for that. I don't mind the timeline compression. Yep. Unless you want all your human characters to die like gnats every single episode, you're gonna have to compress the timeline for sure. I like that. But yeah. Um, but uh I think that it's honestly, I think a lot of it's the controversy, right? Of all the existing Lord of the Rings being like, I hate it, it sucks, blah blah blah blah. That that's pushing people away. It's not bringing people out, it's making us look like the Star Wars fans. And the Star Wars fans are tacky.
SPEAKER_01:Yep, that's fair. I mean, that's I hadn't thought about it that way, but that's fair. You're right. It probably isn't bringing in that many people. And I'm I am with you all the way. I get tired of people being negative. Like, that's my big thing is that I think that it could be great for the the fandom if people appreciate it. Like, even if the fans were like, you know what, I'm gonna appreciate the work. Yeah, yeah. Instead of like, I'm gonna trash this and say how awful it is instead of appreciate like this is millions and millions of dollars went into producing this looks a billion dollars. It looks it looks beautiful, it looks good, and it's fun to see like with the hobbit looking better. Like, this is the opposite.
SPEAKER_00:This is so the first two episodes that were released cinematically. Joe and I went and saw it in theaters, gorgeous, absolutely absolutely gorgeous. It felt like a movie watching just with the cinematography with some of the pieces when Galadriel jumps into the water and starts to swim back. It's just absolutely beautiful. Um, but yeah, I think the controversy drags it down more than the show itself.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, probably part of the reason it probably looks so good is because they did do more, like there, it's less CGI. I think they went back to New Zealand, yeah. Practical effects and all that.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I thought you were gonna say the actress who plays collateral makes it look so good.
SPEAKER_00:No, I mean I mean, she's good. I like her. I really do.
SPEAKER_02:I my take on this, and this is where my friend and Lane and I, we've appreciated each other's opinions. Uh um I watch it from a just a viewer's uh standpoint. I don't watch it as this is a adaptation of Lord of the Rings that's going to be perfect. I now also come with the advantage in this case of not being as familiar with the original source material of these, you know, first age, second age stuff. Um, I can watch it and I can say this is good show making. But I also have to turn off that switch and say I this compared to the source material, this is what I like, this is what I don't like. If you go into that show and you're hoping it to be a faithful adaptation, you're gonna be pissed three episodes in. Yeah. And if you go into it saying, I'm excited about a show that takes place in the world of Lord of the Rings, yeah, and limit your expectations to that, yeah, then you'll enjoy it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we've talked about that before, right? Like you almost have to watch it as its own thing and not think of it as Lord of the Rings content.
SPEAKER_03:It's inspired by and like yeah, takes uses the world building, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, I have one final question that's not on the sheet that I've been thinking about. Okay, so the original Lord of the Rings movies, some of the best casting out there, iconic. Is there anyone that you feel like you would replace? Ooh, man, that's a could be a hot take, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um I mean, I will say I really like um Martin Freeman as Bilbo. And like I do, I I am actually a fan of going back and like adjusting things to make it the same actor as before. Like, like I like when they went back in Star Wars and they put the hand Christians in it. I make sense, I know, but listen, I also watched them older and I watched them when the the prequels had already come out. And that greatly impacts my experience with it. That is fair. That is fair. Um, and so I wouldn't mind. I mean, I think that the I don't even know the name of the actor that originally played his book. Yeah, I think he does a great job, but I think Martin Freeman could also have done, you know, with a little age makeup, or even now, it's just been a while.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I think that couldn't have done it when they made the show for the show.
SPEAKER_03:He also had the rings. We didn't have to age that much. That's true. That's true.
SPEAKER_00:Um, otherwise, I think that is a tough question. Yeah, the casting, the casting. I mean, Kate Blanchette is like Chef's kiss because live to be perfect. Live top.
SPEAKER_02:See, I don't actually have somebody else be Arwen.
SPEAKER_00:She is incredibly bland. Yeah, she is just, and I mean, she's kind of a bland character.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, her dad's pretty boring too.
SPEAKER_00:No, Hugo Eaving's great.
SPEAKER_02:No, I mean uh Steven Tyler. Oh no, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, that's what the only person I was just thinking that the only person I would potentially recast. Now, I do think I'm honestly surprised they haven't tried to do it yet that they haven't rebooted Lord of the Rings and tried again. It's been like 20 years, and honestly, with the current market, like tick-tick.
SPEAKER_03:Well, what brings us to the next big thing in the fandom, yeah, which is the hunt for Golem.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And I'm I'm confused because I know they're bringing back some of the King McKelly. Yeah, he's Elijah Wood is back. Yeah, yeah. What is what is the basis for that? Because I I haven't even heard much you've got to be. Joe knows why. All right, go for it.
SPEAKER_02:Because I've talked to Lane about this. So basically, in uh the intro to the Fellowship of the Ring, they talk about how Sauron and his forces are looking for Gollum because they are trying to find out more information about the whereabouts of the ring.
SPEAKER_03:And that's where we get uh Bagan's Shire. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, so it's like the in-between. So like when they were searching for Gollum.
SPEAKER_03:And the hunt for Gollum.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So But I didn't I didn't know who it was that was hunting for.
SPEAKER_02:So this is this is Sauron's forces know that Gollum at one point had the ring. And so they are hunting him down to be like, where is this win ring?
SPEAKER_01:And so are they making a full like series out of this or is this a movie?
SPEAKER_00:Is it live action or is it anime?
SPEAKER_02:Okay, yep. No, not like the anime movie, which Joe saw Warger here, too. Uh yeah. I I enjoyed it. The music was great. Uh I found out about all the animation shortcuts they took, and now I can't unsee that. But I saw it in theaters and was entertained.
SPEAKER_01:That's about it. Interesting. Okay. Well, I'm shoot, I'm I'm I'll look forward to it because I mean, obviously, Suri and McKellen is as Gandalf, who doesn't want to see that again. So Andrew Zerk is back as Gallon. Also true. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:The one thing I will say that's really cool about War of They Were Hero, they used um actual dialogue that um uh Christopher or no. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Christopher Lee.
SPEAKER_02:Christopher Lee had recorded as Sauron, and that was used in the movie, and it was like his last sort of iteration of Sauruman.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's nice.
SPEAKER_02:I like that. But yeah. It was good.
SPEAKER_01:Well, let's go ahead. We're gonna bring it to a close because we've been talking for a little while and it's late at night. You guys have a full weekend ahead of us.
SPEAKER_00:We appreciate your accommodating our schedule. Yes. Oh no.
SPEAKER_01:We'll have to do it. Yeah, we're just so thankful that the two of you joined us. Uh, you know, Joe, thanks for joining us for two episodes and participating. And um, we just so appreciate having you guys here. So thank you so much for being here. Um, Ben, you want to tell us what we're up to next in the in the podcast?
SPEAKER_03:Next, we're having our uh our friend Sam come on, and she's gonna talk about Jurassic Park and the Jurassic World series and that whole world, that cinematic universe. So I'm excited for that one, for sure.
SPEAKER_01:That's gonna be a good time. I'm I'm definitely excited to hear what she has to say. And I I've got a confession, I still haven't seen the newest movie yet. I need to do that. So Resurrection? Yeah. Between now and when that happens, I gotta go check that out. Is that what it's called? Rebirth.
SPEAKER_03:No, sorry, what am I thinking of? I don't remember.
SPEAKER_01:Jurassic Park? Yeah, the new Jurassic Park that just came out this past or Jurassic World, yes. That just came out this past year.
SPEAKER_02:Like with with uh Scarjoe. Have you seen it?
SPEAKER_03:No, apparently not. Why am I blanking on the name right now? I thought it was resurrection, maybe it's not because it was so memorable.
SPEAKER_01:On the third day it wrote. We're gonna be talking about it. I'm hoping that between now and then maybe I will have gone to go see the movie. But uh yeah, it's real late, guys. Sorry.
SPEAKER_03:Again, sorry, happiness and not being on the ball.
SPEAKER_01:But hey, let's let's let's call it then.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks for joining us, everybody. Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks for joining us on this episode of Fandom of Fandoms. If you had fun, be sure to follow us at FOF.pod on Instagram and threads and at fandomoffandoms on YouTube. Make sure to leave a rating or review wherever you get your podcast. It really helps new fans find the show. Lastly, if you've got a fandom you want us to cover, shoot us an email at fandomofpodcast at gmail.com. Until next time, keep being passionate, keep being curious, and keep being a fan.
