Christopher Nolan: Best Director Of All Time?

Christopher Nolan doesn’t make background movies. He makes the kind you argue about on the drive home, then rewatch because you’re sure you missed something.

We’re joined by our friend Mark to kick off our first director-focused fandom, digging into what makes Nolan one of the most influential filmmakers of the 21st century. We trace our Nolan origin stories through Batman Begins, Memento, and The Prestige, then get honest about why these films feel so “rewatch-required”, from time-bending structures to endings that refuse to hand you a simple answer. Along the way we tackle the big debates: how to rank the Dark Knight trilogy, where a new fan should start in the Nolan filmography, and whether Nolan’s movies are driven more by emotion or intellect.

If you like smart movies, practical filmmaking, and debates that never die, hit play. Subscribe, share this with a Nolan fan, and leave a rating or review. What’s your number one Nolan film, and why?

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Transcript

Basement Studio Banter And Catchups

SPEAKER_03 0:00

All right. We are coming to you from inside Phantom Outpost Studios for episode 24.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Is that the official name now?

SPEAKER_03 0:10

I was going to say he's branding our basement, our dead.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Fandom Outpost. I kind of Phantom Outpost Studios.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

That's where we're at.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

I love that. That's it's a new thing, and it's the moniker that we're going to stick with because it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

You will not find it on Google Maps or Apple Maps, but it is.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

And Michael will give you the wrong address.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

As we've learned today, it's happened twice. It's a habit now.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Well, it's secretive, obviously. Anybody know where the fandom outpost is, it's got to stay in the deep code. Yeah, exactly. All right.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Well, Ben, what have you been up to recently?

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Man, uh well, last night Nick and I had game night with uh James, who was on for Stargate and his girlfriends. That was a good time. Sweet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

It was. We played uh Obscurio and it's uh you ever played Mysterium? I don't know how much Michael's not a big board game guy.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

Not a big board game guy. I wish I was, but Mark? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Board games?

SPEAKER_01 1:01

I enjoy some board games here and there. Okay, nice. Most of the tan. Okay. Oh, okay, yeah. Classic.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

There we go. That is a classic. No, it's it's fun. It's got elements of uh what would you say it's a mix of bin? It's it's a little bit of like uh mafia, like Avalon kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

There is a traitor amongst you that you're trying to find. Yeah, nice among us.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Deception, you know, like among us is pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Yeah, it is because there's tasks that you're trying to do too. Yeah. Uh Nick, what have you been up to?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Um yeah, we're we're still just house stuff. I feel like that's all I've been doing for the past few weeks, but um that's that's a big part of it. I'm trying to think if there's been anything that's like genuinely exciting. Um my son started playing soccer.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

No way, that's fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

That's been fun to you know, just watch the four-year-olds play soccer, and it's it's something else, that's for sure. I can remember doing it. I think that was soccer, it was the first sport that I played too. So um I was I was the kid that was like in the backfield just picking up the the grass and dandelions and that sort of thing. Like that's what I did.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

My parents have a video of me doing the Macarena and goal. Wow. I I'll post that on our social media.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

I think we'd all like to see that. Michael, how you been, man?

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Yeah, good, good. I I was off for a week from work, so went back this week, and uh, you know, that's always a little bit challenging getting back into work when you've been off for a little bit. Uh, but you know, just making the best of it, and we're just doing yard work right now, you know, spring season, gotta get out there. So a lot of manual labor that's happening at the moment. But uh yeah, no, things have been been really good actually. Nice. Yeah.

Why Christopher Nolan Matters

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Well, why don't you introduce our guest today?

SPEAKER_03 2:38

Yes. Oh, I'm so excited. So today we have my very good friend Bark Mary. Some people call him Mark Barry. Uh, but yeah, we go to church together. Uh been going to the same church for a few years. So yeah, we're really excited to talk about Christopher Nolan. And uh yeah, and Mark, anything you want to say?

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Just want to say I'm thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Let's get that theme music. We'll get to get the episode introduced. Hello and welcome to Fandom of Fandoms, the show where every single episode we are diving into the worlds that fans love the most, and we are very excited to be talking about our first director uh this, you know, just ever. I we haven't artists, like yeah. Yeah, yeah. Artists. So this is what we're doing a little bit differently this time. We've done some sports teams, done lots of other stuff, but Christopher Nolan, gonna be the first one that we're actually just covering his movies and really focusing in on him. So um, Michael, why don't you tell us a little bit about Christopher Nolan, who he is, what he's directed, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Yeah, absolutely. So um, yeah, quick overview here. Um, so Christopher Nolan, you know, one of the most influential filmmakers of the 21st century, you know, I think most people can argue that. Um, he's known for his mind-bending storytelling, massive practical filmmaking style. Um, and he's built a reputation for movies that, you know, challenge audiences while still delivering kind of that blockbuster spectacle. Um, so he first broke through with the psychological thriller Memento. That was kind of his big, uh, his big breakthrough, um, which told the story in reverse. So he kind of quickly became known for playing with time and perception. Um, you know, after that, he did Dark Knight trilogy, um, which definitely redefined, you know, superhero movies in general. Um, and then later, you know, he did huge, ambitious movies like Inception, Interstellar, Um, Tenet. Um, so he's famous for his commitment to practical effects, um, you know, large format filmmaking. He often shoots an IMAX. Um, he tries to avoid you know heavy CGI whenever possible. Um, so yeah, you know, whether he's tackling superhero, space travel, historical dramas, you know, his work it just consistently pushes the boundaries of honestly what cinema can be. Um, so yeah, we're yeah, I'm excited to kind of dive in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

I actually had no idea that he directed Memento until today's. And wrote really that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Yeah, so we usually start off with talking about our background in it before we kick it over to you, our expert.

How We Became Nolan Fans

SPEAKER_02 5:02

So, Nick, what what's your background? You love Christopher Nolan, so I do, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Uh he's he's one of my my top two favorite filmmakers, him and Quentin Tarantino. And I was just thinking as you were talking about um, you know, some of his his background, like both Tarantino and uh Nolan are kind of known for their playing with the narrative and time shifting, that sort of thing. Like that's that's something that they're very much known for. I don't know if I'm just like attracted to that in a filmmaker because I don't know, those are those are two of my tops, and they're that's that's their background. That's what they're kind of known for. Um I'm trying to think, I I want to say the the my first exploration into Christopher Nolan was definitely the Dark Knight trilogy. Like I, you know, that would that would have been pretty early because the first what was it, 2005 was the first Batman? Yeah, Batman Begins. Oh, nice. So that would have, you know, as I was kind of coming into my my teenage years, and so that was the first movie that I saw of his. And then with each additional, I mean he doesn't he doesn't put out movies like all that often.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

So probably because he puts a lot of work into them. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

So when he does, like I try to go and see him. I've missed a couple lately. I need to go and catch up. I know we were talking about, hadn't seen Tenet yet, but I do want to come back and see it at some point. It was just one of those things that passed me by and uh want to come back and see it. But I've I've seen a decent amount. I was looking through his catalog. I'm like, how far how familiar am I with it? Am I am I just a faker, my poser fan, or have I actually seen a decent amount of his movies? And I had seen over half of them, I think. So that's nice. But anyways, yeah, Michael, what about you?

SPEAKER_03 6:36

Yeah, I mean, on it really similar to you. You know, the first thing, first movie I saw of his was Batman Begins. Um in 2006, though, he released the prestige. And that's what I was about to ask if that was before or after. It was right after, and my whole family was super into that movie. Um, I don't think I actually knew it was Christopher Nolan until like years later. Um, but I always loved the prestige. Um, yeah, huge favorite of mine. And then, yeah, so I think pretty early on, like, yeah, so the Batman movies, prestige. Um, you know, Inception came out in 2010. I was a massive fan of that right off the bat. And then obviously, yeah, like you were saying, Ben, he hasn't released that many films. Um, so it's kind of easy to, you know, watch all of his movies. But um, yeah, so I'd say from an early age, just I mean, I probably would have been maybe like 14, I think, when Batman begins came out. So um, yeah, I definitely have always loved loved his stuff. What about you, Ben? Same.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Uh, I think I've fallen off over the past couple years. Like I'm missing Tenet, I'm missing Dunkirk. Ooh, that's a that's a good one. I've only seen Oppenheimer once, but yeah. Yeah, I'm missing a good couple, but yeah. Um I mean, super excited for we'll talk about it at the end of the show, but the Odyssey is super pumped for that one.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Uh I was looking at the at the cast for it, and there I didn't even realize like how jam-packed of stars it is. So it's an unbelievable lineup.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Yeah, it is. Uh so Mark, what what got you started in the Chris for Nolan movies? For us, it sounds like it was a lot of Dark Knight, but same for you? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Same for me, yeah. Dark Knight. It was uh when I was a kid, whenever the the movie would come on TV, I'd always record it. So it was always available. Nice. Even if my parents were to delete it off the recordings, I'd somehow find a way to record it. And uh so yeah, that was my first experience. But obviously, I had no idea who Christopher Nolan was, and I didn't even know I was watching one of his best movies, and one of the best movies ever made, really. I just knew I loved I just knew I loved Batman. Yeah, exactly. The Joker was sweet. I thought Heath Ledger did an incredible job, as we all know. But in 2014, I watched Interstellar with my dad in the movie theater, and Little Sophomore Mark didn't really understand the ending very well. So I remember I didn't very I didn't enjoy it a lot when I watched it the first time, but I think I my mind was a little immature and I wasn't really ready to grasp the themes of Interstellar. So in college I watched it again, and then that's when I would say I really kicked off my uh my Christopher Nolan fandom was because I was like, oh yeah, this movie's actually awesome. I've been missing out, and all of his other movies I've been missing out.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Yeah. Nice. Alright, well, what do you feel like

What Makes Nolan Films Special

SPEAKER_02 9:13

makes his movies so special? Like what what makes them stand out from other like big blockbusters?

SPEAKER_01 9:20

I just think Christopher Nolan is committed to the art of filmmaking, unlike any other director today, in like uh in today's standards. I just think that like uh he like one of his unique qualities is that he is willing to go above and beyond to make a quality movie, a compelling story, always choosing the right actors and actresses for his characters. Usually Michael Cain, but yes, yes, yeah. If Michael Caine's not in the movie, I'm not watching it.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

So I expect most, I guess I know he's he's in obviously Dark Knight and He's in the prestige, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:59

He's in the Oppenheimer, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Wow, missed him in that one.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

He's in Interstellar.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Is he wow?

SPEAKER_01 10:05

He's not that he's not Memento. Well that that was yeah, very early. But essentially from Batman Begins to Tenet, he was in every single movie. Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

So man. Well, I mean, oh so is it the filmmaking, the storytelling that keeps you coming back to Christopher Nolan movies then and keeps you coming back as a fan like every time there's a release?

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Yeah, his movies are incredibly incredibly rewatchable. The the story and uh usually the the time and physics elements that he adds to the movie allow you to re-watch it and I don't really get bored of it. I think that's like one of the things that you know, it it I like you said earlier, Mikey, that his commitment to practical effects too is really entertaining. Um like the one that comes to my mind is the Inception Hallway fight scene, yeah, where they like literally built a rotating room, um or they built a camera in a hotel hallway to like essentially rotate together and they just like rolled around in there and fought each other. Like it it just is it's it's mind blowing when you look at like when you look at the behind-the-scenes effects of of those shots.

SPEAKER_03 11:14

So it's funny that you say his movies are re-watchable. It's almost it's like a necessity. You like have to rewatch them if you actually want to understand.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Especially a movie like Tenet, but movies like Interstellar and Inception, you just like have to re-watch them more than once.

SPEAKER_03 11:30

Even the prestige, too, I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

I mean, it was you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:32

But sorry, no, you're gonna say that.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

I mean, the same thing you were gonna say was that yeah, the the rewatching uh Christopher movies, it's it's like they were made to be re-rewatched for sure. And um you're gonna notice different things every time, or maybe um you were talking about how you had seen Interstellar and then watched it again years later and like appreciated it in a different way. Yeah. And that's something that I th I think holds true for almost all of his movies. Like when you watch them again, even way later, you for you've forgotten about some of those. I mean, that's how movies are in general, I guess. Like if I go and I rewatch something I haven't seen in years, I'm gonna notice I might feel differently about it. But they feel more meaningful when you find something new in his movies.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

I do think of course. Yeah. Do you guys feel like that's true of the I would uh to me, like the Dark Knight trilogy is probably the most straightforward of his films. Do you guys still feel like that's true to like you need like rewatches are necessary?

SPEAKER_00 12:26

For the casual movie goer, I would say it's probably the easiest series of movies to understand of his because he doesn't do he's not doing a whole bunch of big time jumps or you know going back in time or whatever, trying to tell multiple perspectives from whatever it is, it's very linear. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:45

I would say Batman Begins has a little bit of nonlinear storytelling. Like um well, my wife and I, we watched them uh a few months ago, and uh they were amazing, obviously. But there was one point where it was when Bruce Wayne comes back for the trial,

Dark Knight Trilogy Rankings

SPEAKER_03 13:00

and she had thought that it was just the next, like chronologically what was happening next. And so we had to like talk through, like, well, no, this is actually jumping back now. So that there was a little bit of that, but I'm trying to think in Dark Knight and Batman beg uh Dark Knight Rises. I don't think there was any any like uh flashbacks or anything like that, but yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

We we spent uh yeah, the the last episode talking about Batman, so I love that we just get to to bring it into this episode as well.

SPEAKER_03 13:24

Yeah, so we we intentionally did not touch on the Dark Knight trilogy because we thought we'd be talking about it a lot today. So I think we're all itching to like Yeah, let's let's go for it.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Like, I so since we tried to avoid it, let's just go since it's our good connecting point between uh Batman episode and this episode. Where where are you guys ranking, I guess, the the trilogy, the dark knight trilogy? I feel like there's an obvious answer, but I just want to hear it from you guys. Where are you at? Well, Mark, why don't you start? For Nolan movies or superhero movies? I would say in so just those three, which one's the best, which one's the worst.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Got it. Uh I would say the best one is for sure the Dark Knight. Yeah. Hands down. And now it there's a debate on which order you should put Batman Begins and Dark Knight Rises in because the problem is they're all like pretty good. Yeah, and there's the Dark Knight Rises, I think, has a little bit more flaws, um, but it's hard to it's hard to rank them. I would say Batman Begins and then Dark Knight Rises at the bottom.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

I see, and it's they're closer than you would say, right? Like, I I don't think there's one that's like, oh well, this one's like the worst ever. It's such garbage.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Yeah. I do part of me does wonder if Dark Knight Rises suffered because like some rewrites had to happen because of Heath Ledger. So like that's uh to me, that's the only thing that like maybe like it would have been different if like yeah, Heath hadn't passed away, but sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

So here here's a little inside scoop. Uh when we were in college together, um, you know, there was uh a certain person that was very pretentious about their their movie. No, just say their name. We would go bring it up. No, no, no, no, no, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. No, no, no, no. No, we gotta see what we're gonna have him on for the thing one day. I don't want to I don't want to talk crap. But no, we he would get into it because that was one of the debates is that I had a a big love for the Dark Knight Rises, and he would just trash Dark Knight Rises about how bad it was and how terrible and I'm just like you just want to like say bad things about a movie that everybody liked, but I I don't know, there was such a connection too. I knew people um so it it filmed in Pittsburgh, you know, the famous scene that's the Pittsburgh Steelers at the football field at the football field. Um and I knew people that drove to Pittsburgh to be extras in the street. Oh, yeah, totally. Oh, that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Good old catch-up stadium.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Yep, catch-up, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

You get the shot of Ben Rothesburger on the side when they're doing the anthem.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Heinz Ward running up the field, like that was one of the I think that was close to his last season. Like he was close to the end of his career at that point, but yeah, makes a big Steelers fan. I am a Steelers fan. But no, that I I mean And we're still friends, but I think that might be why. So if I'm going in order, I probably like I love Batman Begins a lot. Um Dark Knight obviously I think is is the top. It just has to be. I mean, it's as as you pointed out earlier, one of the best movies in cinema ever. Um, and then I I think I'd have to go Dark Knight Rises and then Batman Begins. But I love all three of them, so it's it's a tough, it's a tough order to put in.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Where are you guys at?

SPEAKER_03 16:29

Yeah, I'm actually so probably yeah, four months ago, I would have ranked uh Batman Begins number two, but I think I'm actually with you now, Nick. I think I would go Dark Knight Rises number two. And so, like I said, my wife and I watched them, and I love watching movies with my wife. I don't know, we'd like, I think we just kind of feed off each other's like emotions or something. I don't know what it is, but we were so emotional during Dark Knight Rises. And I again, I it's hard to even articulate why. Like the ending just really hit, and uh so since we watched that a few months ago, I'm like, I I think I would rank this above. Now, granted, I'm not even saying that like I wouldn't even describe it as uh Batman Begins is the worst of them. Like I don't even say it that way. It's like it's just not two and two A. Yeah, exactly. It's just I mean they're all so amazing, and I love them all dearly. So but yeah, but like I said, I think Nick, I'm I'm probably with you. I do Dark Nariz number two. But what about what about you, Ben?

SPEAKER_02 17:23

It'd be begins number two for me, but I I've also not seen them in a couple years, so maybe I'm due for a rewatch and a re-analysis.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

See, if it changes up.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yeah. I just think Batman begins the origin story of Batman is one of the most well done superhero origin stories. So that to me puts it in number two. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

It's yeah, we talked a lot about the the story. Yeah, we talked a lot about nostalgia last time too, and how much of a factor that played in a lot of Batman stuff. And just again, like maybe it's you know that came out for me what what year did we say it came out? 14? It was uh Batman Begins or 2005. Five, okay, wow, okay, yeah. So that would have been high school for me. So yeah, very formative and just yeah, like like this is such a cool movie sort of thing. So maybe it's just a lot of that. So like let's let's go to Christopher Nolan's wider library, then wider catalog.

Where To Start With Nolan

SPEAKER_02 18:13

Where would you start someone in his catalog?

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Ooh, I would if I was getting into Christopher Nolan, I would probably start with the prestige or Batman Begins. So the reason I say prestige is because I think the movie at its core is easy to watch. The twist at the end is obviously um a a twist that you want to go back and re-watch the movie. But I don't think the movie in itself is that confusing. I think it's actually pr uh very entertaining, especially if you like magic.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

Yeah. Yeah. Cool setting too, because it's I mean, what, like late 1800s or something? Like something like that.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Yeah, period piece. I was gonna say for the for the people that aren't familiar, because I feel uh for whatever reason, kind of like you were saying earlier, there that's uh maybe a lot of people aren't aware that Prestige was Christopher Nolan. Um it was one um you know, I'm just trying to give a little bit of background here, but the about the the uh what was the the name of the guy? He he was the illusionist, and um there's a whole entire dark, deep story that goes into the background of it. And it's I I would agree with you too, as far as it's a good place to start with Christopher Nolan because there's a there's a mysterious element to it. You're kind of trying to figure out the entire time what is happening between these two competing illusionists that are. And it was oh man, that is a that is a good one. I at the same time, so around the same time, there was a movie that came out called The Illusionist.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

Yep, yes, um, and that was Edward Norton, yes, amazing movie. I think it won an Academy Award. It's a really good movie.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Yeah, that was one that my dad, because it was right at the same time. My dad always loved the the illusionist more than the prestige. I think it's kind of similar to how we talked a lot about broodiness and darkness in in Batman. Like prestige is very broody and dark. Illusionist has a little bit more of a a different tone, yeah, uh quality to it. So, but uh it it definitely fits right in line with the Dark Knight trilogy with the darkness and the mysteriousness to it.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

So that was also Christian Bale and was it Hugh Jackman?

SPEAKER_02 20:20

Hugh Jackman. Hugh Jackman, yep. So two of my favorite actors, yeah, and Michael Cain. Uh of course Michael Caine. Michael Cain. Michael loves doing it.

SPEAKER_03 20:30

You just say my cocaine in Michael Caine's voice.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

Okay, we've got to stop bringing that cocaine up on this guy. I don't want to get rated. I don't want to get rated explicit. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Oh, goodness. Nice. If uh so we always have to, this is one where last time we found out how hard this is to put our our guest on the spot. Um, but we like to offer a chance to give an impassioned plea about why people should watch Christopher Nolan movies in this case.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

So originally we called it the elevator pitch. Like, what's your elevator pitch for someone to watch it? But then it it's kind of just morphed into an impassioned plea.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

It's Michael, but no, that's if you like good movies, watch Christopher Nolan. No, I'm just kidding. Um I would say if I were to tell someone, I would say the oh man, you got the interstellar music going. This is great. So his again, I I touched on it earlier, just his ability to engage the audience in a way where it really makes you think about a lot of different themes in this world, whether that's time, physics, historical events, like when you see an Oppenheimer, and then obviously in his upcoming film, The Odyssey. Um you know, there's there's really uh they're just so unique in that sense. Very creative storytelling. Um, a lot of his movies are all original ideas. So if you like that, I would say Chris Ronald is. Guy. He has incredible actors to support his movies. Um, I mean, you're playing Hans Zimmer right now. I would say the music of his like if you like good sounding music in a movie that's original, like Hans Zimmer is always collabing with Christopher Nolan, and it's always amazing. Like there's not a time he misses. So yeah, that that to me is just something that is like, okay, if if you're looking for a good movie and you haven't seen Inception, haven't seen Interstellar, go watch those. Because you're gonna get an experience like none other, in my opinion. Bravo. Nice. Thank you, Sarah.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Very well stated. Very well said. The applause going over the music is nice too. One of my favorite impassion pieces.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

There's a good soundtrack for it. Yeah. Nice. Well, we're gonna take uh a quick break, right? And then uh we'll be back with more.

Cocanolan Origin Story

SPEAKER_03 23:15

Nice. Uh we love it so much. That's great. All right. Um, well, we are going to jump into our fandom culture segment. Um, so I'd like to start off with a question. Mark, what exactly is Cocanolan?

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Oh, I'm so glad you asked that question. So Coconolan is a small group that we started a couple years ago at this point, where it's me, Michael, and uh our friend Wes, where so he hasn't seen a lot of the Christopher Nolan movies. And for whatever reason, I think I was just talking to him one day and I was like, Yeah, you know, you gotta watch Interstellar. It's like one of the best movies ever made. And I knew Michael also really liked Nolan movies. I forget how I knew that, but yeah, I don't know how I just like and I was like, all right, I'm just gonna text him and see if he wants to watch this movie with us. Um, because I think we started with an Interstellar, right? I uh I believe so. Yeah, I think that was the first one. Started with Interstellar, so and that's pretty much how it was born. We just watched it and then we were like, well, we're gonna watch another Nolan movie. And then I think it was the second time that's when the the Coca-Cola was introduced. Probably by Michael. Of like, okay, we're gonna make sure we're drinking a nice glass of Coke while we watch this movie.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

And we typically do drink the glass bottle like the Mexican coast with uh uh cane sugar, so it's healthy. It's healthy.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

One time I accidentally brought a diet coke to the party. That was tough. Michael was very upset with me.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Almost had to end the group right there. Exactly. But what about where do you guys stand on Coke Zero? Dude, I can't do it. No, I wish I could. I like Coke Zero, so I'm sorry if I if that's a disappointment. But that's my new Cherry Coke Zero. So, you know, like it's a it's a quality product, Michael. I'm just saying. And doesn't have sugar, so there you go.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

Michael, Michael did want this to be sponsored by Coke, so maybe if we just keep talking about it. Yeah, yeah. Eventually they'll catch on.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

Well, speaking of Coke Zero, why don't we jump into our hot takes? Um,

Hot Takes On Interstellar And Inception

SPEAKER_03 25:17

sounds good. Uh Mark, do you have any hot takes related to Christopher Nolan, his movies, just uh general things in the fandom?

SPEAKER_01 25:27

This is gonna be an extremely hot take, but I think that the movie Interstellar by Christopher Nolan is not just a movie about physics and space, but it's a movie about God. Wow, I've not heard this, genuinely. Okay. I want to hear more. Tell us, yeah, Laboratory. I think because the themes in the movie hint at a higher presence and an eternal power over the world itself, because you see in the movie there's um you see the invisible qualities of something that you can't get certainty of. Because you get like the wormhole there, you get the black hole. Um, there's just all of these uh there's the idea of love for your children, right? Like there's that scene with Dr. Brand, um Dr. Brand's daughter, which is Anne Hathaway. She's talking about why we feel love for people that we have lost, or we love people that have died, uh, or there's some in some other place, hinting at the idea that there is a a theme of love that we can't comprehend because it's inherent to our universe or ourselves as humans. So I think that there's actually a lot of elements in that movie that point towards God that Christopher Nolan is just secretly trying to throw out there and see if it see if it attaches.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Wow, that's cool. I love that. Very cool. I'm gonna I'm gonna throw it back for a minute at the end of Inception. Is the top still spinning? Is it a dream? Where are they at? This is the see, this is like the threat. You remember back in the big debate. Yeah, we're still talking about it now. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Where where where you guys land on it? Uh so I'll start real quick and say that I think the ending is amazing. Um I think the honestly, the part to focus on is not whether the top is spinning, but it the fact that Cobb no longer cares whether he's dreaming or he's in reality because he sees his children and that's all he wants.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

I saw a uh a pretty convincing essay written about this, and that that this person made the argument very compellingly that it definitely was real life and he was actually home, and that was the idea. I think that's the more hopeful uh viewing of the movie for sure. But I and I just I think about that sometimes. There's like certain things that hit the culture in these debates and things that people are talking about, and that's one of them that I always come back to. I remember that being such a big deal after that movie came out, but at the time I was working at a movie theater, of course. Yeah, that was part of the rescue. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Yeah, I um I think it's an ending that it can be whatever you want it to be. Yeah, you know, absolutely, yeah, and it's all about the viewer. Yeah, it's about the viewer, and for me, I want him to be home in reality, and so that's what it is. Now, this is way off topic. Was Stranger Things were they trying to do that with L's ending? Do you a little bit, a little bit? Because if they were, it kind of flopped a little bit. Like I think people talked about it for like people talk about it. Back in hot yeah, but Inception, I mean it's okay. How many years later are we still talking about this? Uh 25? Yeah, we're not gonna be not gonna be talking about this about uh Stranger Things ending, you know, in You don't think so?

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Uh I mean I think a lot of people are just upset that they didn't do anything about it and confirm whether or not, but I mean this is outside of the scope of our our podcast topic, but we didn't come back and talk about the ending of Stranger Things and like really like debrief

Stranger Things Ending Detour

SPEAKER_00 29:06

on that. But uh it sounds it sounds like uh you guys have some strong opinions about how you're feeling about Stranger Things. Where where are we landing here? We'll take a little detour right now.

SPEAKER_03 29:16

Yeah, a little detour. All right, I'll give it. Yeah, I mean, I I mean I love it. I thought it was a bit repetitive. Uh the ending was similar to Inception, where I wanted that to be true of L. And so like for me, like that makes sense, it's true, and so that makes me feel good. Um, but I would say, like, yeah, my my maybe my expectations were too high, which they normally are, so that's my fault. But that's kind of where I landed on it. What about you, Ben? No, it was about the same.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

It was, I mean, uh, it was enjoyable. I think that they could have done a couple other things differently, but I mean, I I think it they ended it probably about as well as they could have. Like, again, like you said, we I think we all put such high expectations on it because of how much we enjoyed the rest of it and how good it started the first couple seasons that we were yeah, just so ready for the perfect ending, and it's just it's not ever gonna happen. So I think by giving us something like ambiguous like that, we can still talk about it and we can make it more like what we want for it.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Gotcha. Mark Mark, where do you land? Are you big? Not a fan. Okay to put it nicely. Wow, here we go. So here we go. I'm gonna have the hot take today. I loved the ending a lot. And Ben knows this because I was I was, you know, sending messages as I was watching it and telling them that I just I really did. I appreciated um so much about what the ending was. Um and even after I was there there were valid points that people came up with afterwards about poking holes and things and the overall plot and structure and some of it. And I I understand a little bit, but at the same time, it's hard to, you know, after ten long years, bring as you pointed out, to bring it into land effectively. Yeah. And I personally couldn't have really imagined a much better ending um overall. And I thought it was that was what I I like the I like the closure. And I I I know this is not surprising to Michael, especially knowing how much I I just love uh the things that he loves. I love the things that I love. I love it deeply, you know? Like that's the way that it goes.

SPEAKER_03 31:18

Rise of Skywalker and and everything. Rise of Skywalker. Now we can um yeah, well, let's yeah, we'll jump back. Thanks for that detour. That was good. We'll we'll jump back on topic here. Yeah, any other uh hot takes, uh Mark, as far as Christopher Nolan goes.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Um no, I don't have any hot takes at this time. But I am open to hearing your guys's because I feel like my interstellar take is very hot, but um yeah. What do you guys think?

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Ooh, man. Other than my uh so the the the inception one was the one that I had prepared as far as what I thought what was what was in the back of my mind. Um I yeah, nothing nothing pops off just because I I I think he's so beloved that it's hard to take anything and go that he's done that's controversial or or I was gonna say, is he is he then beloved or is he just effective that he there's no holes that could be poked? That could be. Yeah, maybe I mean I mean this isn't a a hot take, I don't think, but I I think that he is probably, if not the greatest filmmaker that ever lived. He's one of the top five, in my opinion. Like, I don't think that there has been I I I don't know. I'm thinking about like who would go in my top five filmmakers, and yeah, there there's just not anybody else that really comes that that close to him.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Well, he's just so distinct. I mean, it's that's one of the things is like when it's a Christopher Nolan movie, I don't know. I'm just thinking about other filmmakers I love, and it's like someone else could have made that. And I I don't know, I don't have like great examples off the top of my head, but um what were you gonna say, Mark?

SPEAKER_01 32:59

I was just gonna say that I 100% agree. I would put him as like my number one filmmaker, director, writer of all time. Sure. And you know, that's saying something for there's been a lot of great directors, yeah, but I just feel like he takes the cake on everything that I love about movies, he does well. Right.

Would Nolan Work In Any Era

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Well, here's here's a question. If Christopher Nolan had become a success in a different time, 20, 30 years ago, before IMAX cameras and the high-quality filmmaking technology we have, would he be as effective?

SPEAKER_03 33:37

Well, I think I think the the technology side of it is almost like a bonus to his storytelling, and his his storytelling is so original and so interesting. It's like you know, the high quality production just adds like a layer to it, but I think he would still be equally as effective. Because I think he would have just found other ways, you know, to make his vision come to life, because he is just so creative.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

He would have been groundbreaking no matter what. That's what I would say. Yeah, 100%. Um just from the the end of storytelling in general, and then like you said, if he didn't have the kind of of technology that he needed to make it work, the storytelling could make up for it, number one, and then number two, I think that he still would have been somebody that was like, I'm gonna push the the envelope a little bit. Like you're gonna say this isn't possible, we don't have the technology to do it, let's try it. You know what I mean? Like let's just see what we can do and get it done. And I mean, that's how any good movie gets made, right? Like the the the director has this vision that we're gonna do this, and then everybody's like, We this this isn't possible. Like I've I've seen in some of the the other podcasts and things I listen to that talk a lot about movies, they'll talk regularly about how it's the director that kind of pushes sure things. It's their vision, yeah. Yeah, it's their vision. And then if he's got good people that he's working with and hired, that that that's when you see those breakthroughs happen. That's when you see these these companies, ILM being one of them that we've mentioned many times, that has just done things that's groundbreaking. So that's I think that's where I'd go.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

If Christopher Nolan made a silent movie in the 40s, it would still be amazing.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Uh now I'm I'm sitting here trying to picture Interstellar being made in like the 70s and 80s. Like that'd be kind of sick. Would it be Star Trek esque or yeah?

SPEAKER_01 35:27

I mean, it they did a lot of really cool things with Star Wars in that time period. So, I mean, you never know. Okay, yeah. No, that's a great question, Ben. He's a director that goes above and beyond most of the time.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

So one I I do wonder though, if like he other people would have been able to buy into his vision because I think that's a large part lately of why he's been able nothing against him, but like why he's been able to get buy-in from studios and like the and actors, even is because they've seen his vision now played out. I wonder if it would have been harder for uh like producers or whoever to yeah, buy in without that resume.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Yeah, that totally makes sense. I was thinking earlier as you were playing our our song, so this is kind of just to transition us from one thing to the next. Um, because we we often talk about creators at this point, um, and he is the creator ultimately, as far as well, that's not a good way to put it on the creator of all.

SPEAKER_02 36:17

I know Mark was talking about the presence of God in Interstellar, but uh I don't think it was him.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

No, but I was just thinking about when the music was played when we came back up. I was gonna bring this up earlier. Do you guys remember how that it it turned a little bit into a punchline at one point that people would use it as a way of like making the blah just inception, and then like in general, uh Nolan movies are kind of known for having that very power, like a lot of them have just this very powerful horn or whatever that goes in there. And I was just thinking about that as like some of those creators' funny videos and things like that that um would would work that in there as a way to make a little bit of a punchline or oh, this is it's so convoluted, it's such a ridiculous notion of what's going on and just how much people would would I mean there there were some that would have been back in the the you know the 2010, so that was a little bit before we had like shorts and things like that, but I can only imagine at this point, like what would the shorts and stuff be centered around like the the inception movie and the the music that goes along with it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Yeah, the loud horn when they're finally falling uh backwards and they're all you know taped and duct taped together in the car or whatever it is just and it still is.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

I feel I there's still a decent amount of it that I'll like I'll come across sometime that there are there are references, even though the movie is 15 years old, that I'll see a video that is meant to call back to Inception and see and see that. So I don't know. It's it's cool to see that his films, as we've already talked about, stand the test of time, that people keep on coming back to them. Um and new people, I would say, as are are you know are are discovering them for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

So yeah, his movies are truly timeless.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Yeah. Well, Nick, uh why don't we

Inception Horns And Meme Culture

SPEAKER_02 38:07

transition and why don't you take us in a little bit of would you rather for our guest?

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Let's do it. Always like to start off our uh what do we call it, our group discussion aspect with would you rather? So let's let's go we'll make a lightning round. Would you rather experience dreams within dreams like exception inception or time moving backward like in Tenant?

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Wow, I would say so. My originally I was thinking dreams within dreams and inception, but I'm gonna say time moving backward and tenant. Oh, okay. Just after watching that movie last week, I would say it would be pretty it would be a pretty amazing experience, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Would you rather be stranded in space searching for a new home in Interstellar or stuck on a beach during the relentless evacuation of Dunkirk? Those are both kind of yeah. It's kinda sad.

Would You Rather Nolan Edition

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Would you rather stranded in space searching for a new home? I think just the the wartime being like stranded on a beach would be even more scary.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Just gotta use your own wits to figure it out. How are you gonna survive? Whereas, all right, am I gonna get shot behind enemy lines?

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Yeah, like if I if I die from getting sucked into a black hole, you know, I mean like I'm not gonna be that bad about it.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

One of the only people who's done it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Uh let's see. Would you rather have Batman's resources in the dark night or illusion powers from the prestige? Batman's resources, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 39:38

Yeah, be a millionaire. Yeah, be a magician? Billionaire magician. You said powers, like there weren't real powers, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Like uh no, so we can we can get into the yeah, I mean the box, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

The box, dude. Yeah, the box was pretty cool. Sends you to Diagon Alley, too.

SPEAKER_03 39:59

Okay, guys, real quick. If Christopher Nolan made a Harry Potter movie, I mean, can you freaking imagine? That would be insane. Yeah, that'd be nuts. Yeah, sorry, keep going, keep going, Nick.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Uh would you rather lose your memory every day like in Memento or live your entire life inside a simulation without knowing it like inception? Wow.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

I would have to say losing your memory every day like in Memento. Really?

unknown 40:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

I think knowing my whole life was it just a simulation would be sad. This says without it.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

It says without knowing it. Oh, it says without knowing.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

That's like the matrix, too. That's the matrix. Yeah, you said that.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

I was like, wait, the matrix?

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Yeah, the matrix, inception. Like that's a tough one. Yeah. Don't don't know that it's going on.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

I think I'm still still gonna stick with my original. Let's be real.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

We are living in the in the matrix, anyways, as we know. So yeah. Obviously. Uh let's see. Would you this is good. So we're getting back into just a Batman specific question. Would you rather be chased by the Joker in Dark Knight or hunted by Bane and Dark Knight rises?

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Wow, that yeah, I mean both options are just horrible. Terrifying anyway. Oh gosh. I would say probably hunted by Bane. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:19

Yeah, because the Joker, like, you're gonna die in a in a weird way. Bane, at least he'll just like punch you.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Yeah, Joker's gonna walk up to you and tell you a story and then start cutting open your mouth with his knife. And I'm like, I'd rather just get punched in the face by Bane and then just a little more direct.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

A little more direct for sure. It's true. He's not as as uh dark. What is it because he's Joker is unpredictable. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Very unpredictable. Very chaotic. Yes, absolutely. Would you rather explore a black hole in Interstellar or test an ab an atomic bomb? Oh, uh black hole for sure. Black hole, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

Absolutely. So cool.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Uh if nobody was injured, right? I mean, like it'd be cool to like go to a place where if I knew there would be no collateral damage, like I'd I'd love to just be there and see the the atomic bomb dropped. That'd be crazy. I don't know. Oh, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

Just the fact that we don't know what are in like what's in a black hole. Yeah, yeah. Like that would just be amazing.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Who knows? Another dimension. Uh let's see, one more. Um would you rather know the secret behind the magic trick, like in the prestige, or be left in awe, not knowing how it works. So is it better to know or not know?

SPEAKER_01 42:33

I would say it's better to not know, especially with the magic and illusions. Because uh sorry, go ahead, Mike.

SPEAKER_04 42:40

Sorry, no.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Uh like just in in general, I feel like once you find out the secret, it's not gonna be as good as you maybe thought it was it was. It's just better to not know. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:52

I just I gotta chime in here. You know how I am. Um, I watched an America's got talent video of a magician, and his trick blew my mind, and so I looked it up, like how it was done, and it was really sad. I I wish that I didn't do that. Yep, because it's just like, all right, well, that's you know, that's no good.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Well, not to go on a tangent, you guys know the show Um Penn and Tellers Fool Us. Yeah, yeah, dude. I love that show. Exactly. I've never heard of it now. Oh man, so magicians come on stage and they try to do a trick, and Penn and Teller have to guess through code if they know how they did it. Yeah, they'll make like little allusions, like something about like if it hasn't to do with mirrors that we've talked about. Well, like your reflection might have done this, like so they'll try to make give like hints, but yeah, so the goal you win if you fool Penn and Teller about how you did your trick.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

Oh wow, yeah. I do watch a lot of those videos. Yeah, it's a good time. I took a I took a Penn and Teller master class a few years back. So I stuck into it for a while.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

What was it about?

SPEAKER_03 43:48

Yeah, I was gonna say, so we need to see some illusions from Mikey. Well, it's so funny because last time I was telling my wife, I was like, you know, because I know one good card trick. Okay. I was like, I should I should do my card trick on the podcast tomorrow. I don't know if she thought it was a good idea. She didn't really say. But I did I did not bring a deck of cards. Oh man. Well, I'm sure Ben has one.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

We'll give it uh short. We'll make a short. We'll make it short of it. Yeah, exactly. Okay, let's jump into some wider discussion.

What Defines A Nolan Film

SPEAKER_02 44:14

So I'm gonna start off with. So we talked about like you're gonna start someone off with like either Batman uh begins or the prestige. But which movie of Christopher Nolan's do you feel like is his most iconic? Is it you know interstellar? Which which would do you feel like is the uh pinnacle of his work at the quintessential Nolan film?

SPEAKER_01 44:35

I would say Interstellar. Okay. And I used to think it was the Dark Knight, but I have changed my opinion in recent years, and I would say Interstellar, hands down. Nice.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

I'm surprised that we haven't had more more conversation about Oppenheimer. That's the that's one that hasn't come up as much as I thought it would in this episode.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Yeah, it's it's the best biopick I've ever seen. And uh unfortunately, compared to some of Nolan's other movies, there are some more like inappropriate themes and and that type of thing. So, you know, it's a little bit more not Nolan-esque. Sure. But um it's still an amazing movie.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Yeah. Now I I that's fair to say. But the the best biopick that there's man, there's been some good ones though, too. I I do I I I enjoy a good biopic. Dude, walk the lines, one of my favorite movies of all time. Never seen it. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, that was a that was a big one.

SPEAKER_03 45:27

We'll watch it together. We'll throw it into a into a Coke and Nolan session. Is that a it's not a Nolan, though? Well, it'll be an exception. All right, uh, let's I'll I'll jump in with one here. Um what do you think defines a Christopher Nolan film more? His storytelling structure or his visual style?

SPEAKER_01 45:45

That's a good question because both are really good, but I would say his storytelling structure because I don't think there is ever gonna be a director that explores the theme of time moving backwards. So, like in the movie Tenant, right, his storytelling is very nonlinear, as is most of his movies, and it requires that you maybe watch it like a few times, but I do think there are some Nolan movies that his visual style is better. Um, like in Interstellar, for instance, I mean some of the planets that they're on are incredibly visually appealing. And I would say so, I guess it just depends on the movie, really. But yeah, it's just I would say storytelling.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

Um but yeah, it's it's it's it's toss-up. Yeah, that makes sense, yeah. Well, with the along those same lines, would you argue that his films are more emotionally driven or intellectually driven?

SPEAKER_01 46:47

I would say most of them are intellectually driven, although like uh in Interstellar, it's very emotionally and intellectually driven because you have the story of Matthew McConaughey, his character, and his daughter, um, so Coop and Murph, right? Obviously, father-daughter, that there's a very emotional uh element to the story because of them. He's trying to get back to his daughter while also trying to save humanity. So, but there's also a lot of like intellectual themes as well. So I just think it's a good mix of both. And but I think for the most part it's intellectually driven for his films.

SPEAKER_03 47:26

Well, yeah, I mean even thinking back to the prestige, it's similar, like the emotional side of it is you know, this horrible tragedy with Angier and his wife, and like you know, that that really drives the whole the whole competition between them, you know. That's like at the center of it, but then at the same time, it's like yeah, you do have both those elements.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

So I was thinking when when I go to uh a Christopher Nolan movie, I think I'm I'm expecting to be challenged intellectually. I don't I would not say he's if I'm not like I'm not getting emotional in the sense that like I'm crying about the movie in the same way that I am with other more emotional stories. So I th I I I think I'd probably argue more intellectual of them if I'm asking that. Because that's I don't know. I the he's not one where I've teared up a little bit of his movies. I'm more like just left, okay, what's what just happened? Like what's the one? Um a little a little bit, but not not even as much that. And um, I mean, I I love the ending, especially in Inception, when you get to the end and like all of the stuff that kind of comes to the when it all comes to a head and you're left wondering what's going on. Did he see his kids again? Did he see his family? Um you know, though those sorts of elements, which sounds I I need to I need to watch Interstellar because I have not seen it. Oh, okay. Oh, wait, really? I was just thinking about that.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

You're sitting here talking about Dark Knight Rises being one of the most emotional ones, but for me it was Interstellar. Yeah, you need to watch it.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

I'll I'll pick it up, maybe I'll do that tonight.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Especially as a especially as a dad, I'm sure you'll find some things that 100%.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

Is it fair to say that Nolan is the best director on ending his films of all time? Because I feel like there's so many endings that are just like it or are perfect, like the Dark Knight ending, the inception ending, yeah, the prestige ending. Honestly, interstellar. I mean he knows how to end his films. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

Dang. That is a good thing. I think he might be.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

Yeah. Uh let's let's go back to I want to talk about Tenet. It's one that I haven't seen. Yeah. And one of the things I've heard about it

Tenet Complexity And COVID Release

SPEAKER_02 49:27

is it's one of the most complex ones, and it's uh might be a little too complex. I know you've mentioned it requires multiple watches. Do you feel like that's too far like for a filmmaker to go to ask your viewer to watch it two, three times?

SPEAKER_01 49:41

Yeah, I actually so this is funny. I recently watched it, and after I finished watching it, I was like mad. I was like, I did not enjoy it as much as I thought I was going to. And I was just like, this is way too confusing. I don't want to have to watch it like another two times to really get it. Yeah. I just found myself like nitpicking and just confused, and my brain was hurting. Like that was also why I was mad. I was just like, what the heck is going on? And uh thankfully I had my brother-in-law there to and my wife to help me uh like walk like walk me through it, so that was better. But yeah, I don't know. I would say to a degree, yes, it is extremely complex, a little bit more than I would like out of a Nolan film. I was just like, okay, yeah, it's it could have been like tuned up and cleaned up a little bit better to make it more cohesive, but yeah, yeah, that's what I would say.

SPEAKER_03 50:41

Go ahead. That um I'm almost wondering if it's one of those films that where the director has so much control they kind of get in their own way. Like I felt that way about the most recent Wes Anderson film. It was too Wes Anderson-y, you know, he just he just that like Rocket City or No, it was um blanket on the nail. Oh, the Phoenician scheme. Oh where it's like he has a certain style and and you know, way of directing and storytelling, and it's it's almost like he trips over himself, you know, trying like anyway. That's just my thought I had.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

Yeah, Nolan went super Nolan obviously. Exactly. Yeah, like he tried so hard to make it so complex that maybe he went too far. But I would agree.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

It was during COVID, right? That is another thing I was wondering. Yeah, is if that it's kind of a weird element as well. Well that was why that was part of the reason why it didn't perform as well in theaters, right? Because it came out, did they delay it?

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Yeah, but Nolan insisted on it being in the movie theater. That's why it was like the only movie in the theaters that was like you know, worth going to months, right? I think, yeah. Yeah. It came out like in August, I think.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

Was it August of 2020? August of 2020. I'm pretty sure. Oh, okay. Yeah. It was like during the pandemic. Yeah, that's like right after it. That's wild. I had forgotten about that. Yeah, I th I think that's probably why I missed it, truthfully, because I probably at the time, you know, I was that was pre-kids still, so I would have I would have gone to go see that one in the theaters.

SPEAKER_01 52:06

Yeah, and funny, when I was so during that time, I was still in college, and a friend uh from my church, I was walking to my house and he was out on his porch, and I talked to him, and he's like, Yeah, I just saw the new Tenant movie. And so we started talking about Tenet and Christopher Nolan, and then I actually that's when I watched Memento for the first time. Uh like a week later, he was like, Hey, let's hang out and watch Memento. So that the Tenet conversation sparked the Memento uh movie night. So this is pre-Coke and Nolan. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 52:38

So yeah, the precursor to Coke and Nolan. Yeah, I have some experience in that area.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

I I think for me, like especially Tenant was one that like even seeing trailers for it, I was like, I don't know what this is about. Like, at least you know, Inception Interstellar, I was like, okay, I can get like a vague sense of where we're going with this, but like to Tenant, I was just like, what am I watching? It's just a bunch of stuff happening.

SPEAKER_03 52:58

But well, that leads to a good question.

Why Audiences Crave Complexity

SPEAKER_03 53:01

So, you know, we're talking about Nolan's complex storytelling. Why do you think audiences are so drawn to that complexity?

SPEAKER_01 53:11

Because this might be also a hot take, but I think a lot of movies nowadays maybe don't treat their audience as smart or capable of handling deep and important themes to life. Um I think often Nolan depicts human nature in his movies very well. Specifically, that comes to mind is Matt Damon's character in Interstellar, where he's a guy who's really only out for himself and doesn't care what damage he causes. He just wants to get home and save his own skin. Yeah. Which, sorry, not to spoil that. Oh no, I have a spoiler.

SPEAKER_04 53:48

Why so serious? Yeah, that's it's good.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

So uh yeah, I just think he he leaves the audience wanting more, but not necessarily getting it. So he engages them in that way of okay, I'm this story is complex enough where I understand it, but it's gonna make me think about you know the movie as a whole or these themes for a long time, which I think is really good for a movie experience. And he he treats his audience like they're smart and capable, which I r I appreciate. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:22

Well said. I've been hearing a lot about uh so not to not to bring it again to an unrelated thing, but as you were talking about that, it just made me think about um I I've been listening a lot to uh the podcast about the making of how how we made your mother, uh which is what I've been turning bin on to, and we're we're definitely gonna cover it at some point for sure. Nice. Um, but uh that was one of the things that they would talk about repeatedly, is that um one of the things that sets that sitcom apart is the that there was this story that continued on and it was a sitcom, and most sitcoms that came before it were just very, you know, I mean there was there wasn't episodic, that you didn't have to follow things through. And they've talked a lot about on the show how there was a commitment to like we're gonna trust that our audience is smart enough to follow the, you know what I mean, that if they want to figure it out, they're going to, you know, come back and re rewatch it or whatever, or find the find the beginning of it and find the things that they have kind of laid out there. And I think that's the same kind of thing that you're you're talking about, too, is that Christopher Nolan has this expectation that I'm gonna I'm gonna put it out there to the audience and I'm gonna trust that they're smart enough to to figure it out, or if not, they're gonna come back and try to to work their way through it because that's who he's making the movies for. He's not I I think uh Nolan is not often making movies for like the casual movie though, or exactly.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

A lot of movies are like brain candy almost, as like as opposed to his is like actually like deep and makes you think, yeah, like yeah, realistic.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

Yeah, like you think about his take on Batman, very realistic compared to the 1989 Batman and even the 2022 Batman, just totally different in that sense.

SPEAKER_03 56:10

Well, we got a few minutes left. Ben, you want to ask one more question? Uh sure. I think I took the last one though. So if you guys have one. Oh, I can go free. If you could jump into one Nolan film world, which

Practical Effects Versus CGI

SPEAKER_03 56:22

would it be? And would you actually actually survive it?

SPEAKER_01 56:25

So definitely not interstellar because the earth is dying. Nice. But and probably not Gotham City because for obvious reasons, this is just a very horribly run city. Yeah. I would say the world of Inception. Nice. That's my that's my choice. Because just the now, it would be tough to say if I would abuse the dreaming aspect of the world, but I would say like the the overall idea being able to tap into dreams and experience that would just be um incredible, really. I mean, I it I just want to be able to experience that so badly because it's like, man, half the time I can't even remember my dreams. Lucid dreaming kind of thing, like I want to be able to actually see what a dream is like. I don't know. That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

I had one more, I feel like I'm about cheatist here because I didn't want to come back and revisit this, but you we've mentioned it earlier in the show about the practical effects versus CGI. Um and especially in today's day and age, I mean, how important would you rate his his commitments to those practical effects uh in the landscape of today's filmmaking?

SPEAKER_01 57:32

Yeah, I think because you can see the actual differences on screen, right? Like you see a practical set or a scene, and you're like, oh, I can actually tell this is not CGI, right? Like when he's doing the Odyssey this upcoming summer in pretty much all IMAX film, you're gonna be able to tell the difference. Like aesthetically, you're gonna be able to see, like, oh, this is shot in film. Um, but then even with just with like the non-CGI most of the time, you're gonna be able to just really respect his craft as a as a filmmaker and director, because I mean, it's really easy to just throw up a green screen or create a lot of CGI effects. And don't get me wrong, CGI can be really awesome, but I think practical effects make you really appreciate the craft because you're like, oh yeah, he put a lot of time and effort into this, and it also looks really cool at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 58:27

Well, I think of Peter Jackson with Lord of the Rings versus when the Hobbit trilogy came out, yeah, and just the level of CGI that went off. The absolute stark difference of like enjoyability between the two. Because again, like what you were saying, Mark, it just adds such an amazing depth, you know, having practical effects and real sets and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

Yeah, and like I the that scene where I I forget which city it was, but in real life, they built like this miniature city, and in the film they made it so that it looked like it was big on the screen, but it was actually just this like mini model.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

Yeah. Um were like that, right? Because they they had a huge model of was it minister? That was oh man. Yeah, yeah. Just cool. I I I don't think uh and again, this kind of goes to what we were talking about, like the casual movie goer versus like the person that um has an appreciation for that that art a little bit more and what it takes. Because I didn't really come to appreciate practical effects until I really started um doing a little bit more. I don't want to say research, but in the sense that like I would get interested in how movies were made um and going and seeing some of that and like the practical effects. I now I'm kind of a a staunch supporter of hey, if a if somebody is using, if that's what they um are putting into their movies and they're they're focused more on that than the CGI, I'm almost automatically going to like that movie even more.

SPEAKER_02 59:54

It takes it takes such m more vision and thoughts and craft, yeah, creativity, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

Expense, I would say too. Like time and expense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:05

Well, um, we usually end our episodes

The Odyssey Expectations

SPEAKER_02 1:00:08

talking about the next big thing. And I know we've teased kind of the Odyssey. Off air, we were kind of talking about it too. Like, what do you feel like his takes for the Odyssey are going to be? Because it's again such a hard one to tackle and that hasn't been done a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

But let's throw this out here, too. Does anybody just for the the listeners if they make it this far, when is the Odyssey due to come out? Uh July. It's gonna be the summer blockbuster.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:30

Summer blockers, yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:32

The big I don't know the exact date. Mikey's on it, though. She's got yeah, Mikey's got it.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:36

Uh uh July 17th.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

This year. Nice. Very nice. So next big thing for Christopher Nolan. Sorry, I interrupted the question. No, you're good. Can you sorry? What was the question again?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:46

Like uh what do you feel like his take on it is going to be? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:50

I think he's gonna stick to the story as true as he possibly can. I think it is going to be a really long movie, knowing Nolan. Right. Well, and the Odyssey, I mean, both combined. Yes. Like he he didn't really care about the length in Oppenheimer. Um, it was like what, three hours, something a little more than that. So I don't think that's gonna be an issue for him. Yeah, I'm curious to see how he bounces back and forth between the timelines because my wife and I are reading the book right now, and there's a lot of that, right? Different timelines going on at the same time, like a little bit of flashbacks, a little bit of uh of just mysterious storytelling. Um, like, oh, we don't really know where Odysseus is. Tell Max is going to find him. I don't know. It's just I'm really curious to see how like what kind of twist he's gonna throw in, because there's always a twist in a Nolan movie. It doesn't matter. Even the Dark Knight, there's a twist.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:42

Like so yeah, that will be cool to see. I uh yeah, I'm really looking forward to I would say more than anything, I mean, obviously, the that there's gonna be some killer action sequences and stuff like that. The Cyclops. Um I'll be really interested to see how they they just capture. I mean, we're talking about the emotional storytelling as well. There is a lot of emotion within Odysseus as a character as well. So trying to um, you know, have have him and and telemachas have their their emotional story as well. So I'll be I'll be interested to see how he handles that. Yes, very cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:19

Great. Well, thank you so much, Mark, for joining us. Yeah, I know we could keep going.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:24

Absolutely. Thanks for having me on, guys. This is really fun. No, this is so great. Yeah, we yeah, we super appreciate it. Well, what's uh Nick, what's next for the fandom, uh the fandom podcast?

Next Episode Tease And Closing

SPEAKER_00 1:02:33

Fandom podcast. Yeah, we're gonna be talking about Survivor, um, which I have almost no background in. Michael, how about you?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:41

I've seen half an episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:43

Oh my gosh. Yeah, so yeah, uh, we're gonna have Matt on. Uh he is Lindsay's husband. Lindsay was on our Gilmore Girls episode. So he's gonna come join us, and I know he's a super fan. I'm in a Survivor Fantasy League with him. So nice. It's a thing. But yeah, um, what are we like? What season are we in? Oh my god. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, but they they crank out to a year, so okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:09

That's why I just can't even believe that it's been that like popular enough for that long that it is continued. Two seasons a year is wild for 25 years.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

Yeah, so yeah, really looking forward to that, and uh, we will dump a ton of knowledge on you guys. It'll be great.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:27

Are you so are you a big fan? I mean, you're I've watched every season. Yeah. Every season? Every season. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:32

There were some like in the middle that I at one point had missed, but uh went back and have rewatched them. So nice. Yeah, I've seen everything. Wow. Sweet.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:39

I'm looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:41

Yep. Well, as always, guys, thanks for listening. We'll see you next time. Thanks for joining us on this episode of Fandom of Fandoms. If you had fun, be sure to follow us at FOF.pod on Instagram and threads and at fandomoffandoms on YouTube. Make sure to leave a rating or review wherever you get your podcast. It really helps new fans find the show. Lastly, if you've got a fandom you want us to cover, shoot us an email at fandomofpodcast at gmail.com. Until next time, keep being passionate, keep being curious, and keep being a fan.