Fandom of Fandoms Podcast
Fandom of Fandoms is a podcast that dives into the worlds that fans love most — from galaxies far, far away to magical schools, epic quests, and everything in between. Each episode spotlights a different fandom, exploring its history, what makes it special, and why people are so passionate about it. We’ll chat with real fans, share wild stories, and invite you to geek out with us, one fandom at a time.
Fandom of Fandoms Podcast
The Problem With Porgs: The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
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To celebrate one full year of Fandom of Fandoms, we go off the cuff on Star Wars Episodes VII, VIII, and IX and why these movies still spark so much love, frustration, and rewatches. We start with the moments burned into our brains, from Rey’s first scavenger scene to Kylo Ren’s terrifying appearance, plus some of the most striking visuals in Star Wars.
Then we get into the big questions: Is Rey a strong protagonist or does the trilogy rush her development? Did “Rey Nobody” offer a more interesting theme than “Rey Palpatine,” and why does Palpatine’s return feel like a twist without groundwork? We also break down Kylo as the trilogy’s most dynamic character, the underused potential of Finn and Poe, the messy handling of legacy characters like Luke, Leia, and Han, and the way fandom backlash shapes choices in The Rise of Skywalker.
We end on what the sequels absolutely nail: jaw-dropping cinematography, memorable planets, big action set pieces, and a John Williams score that still defines the franchise. If you’ve ever argued about The Last Jedi, rolled your eyes at porgs, or secretly love parts of these films anyway, this one is for you. Follow the show, share this episode with a Star Wars friend, and leave a review wherever you listen.
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One Year In And Back To Star Wars
SPEAKER_02All right. We are coming to you from Phantom Outpost Studios for episode 27. I love it.
SPEAKER_03Guys, we have made it one year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03One one full year. It's been a it's been a great one. Uh every good year. Every two weeks we've managed to keep this going, you know. Yeah. It's a good excuse.
SPEAKER_01But even when it hasn't been exactly two weeks, we we do it.
SPEAKER_03That's right. Yeah. No, I I I appreciate the uh I don't know, just the amount of um focus and determination that we've we've all had to make this continue and keep it going. So we're we're going strong going into year two coming up. So got a very special episode planned for today, right, Ben?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Yeah, even though it's off the cuff, it's not a planned one like we normally have. So we'll see how this goes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, Michael, what are we talking about? We are talking about the Star Wars sequel trilogy. So this is episodes seven, eight, and nine, which released uh 2015 through 2019. Um, so the most recent Star Wars theatrical releases. Uh, there actually has not been a theatrical release since Rise of Skywalker, which is interesting. We're due. Yeah, this year will be the first time at the month.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, at the end of the month. Which we gotta we gotta make our plans here to go. Yeah, we do. Yep, yep. So uh Mandalorian and Grogu. We'll we'll figure that out after the episode. But yeah, we will. Yeah, no, I'm I'm excited to uh to talk sequel trilogy for sure. But let's uh let's go ahead and dive into that theme song and we'll introduce the episode. And uh I got a little question for us to start us off.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03Hello
First Images That Define The Sequels
SPEAKER_03and welcome to Fandom of Fandoms, the show where every single episode we are diving into the worlds that fans love the most. And tonight we are going to be talking about that sequel trilogy of Star Wars. And uh, you know, this is in celebration, not only it's a little bit late for May the 4th, but also just one year of us doing the podcast. We started Star Wars, had about a midway point Star Wars, and then here we are again, coming back to Star Wars again, and I'm sure not for the last the group.
SPEAKER_01We have at least two, three more episodes that I think we can get out of this. For sure. Uh-huh. And then revisits later on. Once we're big and people are listening to us again. Sure.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'll I'll start us off with just a quick question to get us in the mood. Um, what's the first image or moment that that pops into your mind when you think of the sequel trilogy?
SPEAKER_04Somehow palpiting return. That's the one.
SPEAKER_02Now, okay, so I'm I'm kind of sad to say that that is the first image that comes into my mind because I don't want the I don't want any part of Star Wars to just be a laughable meme, you know? Yeah or an infamous meme. Um, but sadly, I do I think that's it for me. I just think of I think of that scene and like that's just so that's mine. That's mine. Wow. What about you, Ben?
SPEAKER_01Uh for me, I think of kind of the first imagery we got of Kylo Wren with that cross guard lightsaber, it being kind of like a instead of like a smooth lightsaber, it kind of being you know like kind of wild in energy and untamed, which is very representative of his character. And uh yeah, like I just picture Kylo Wren and again like that iconic sort of like first look we got of him, really. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Not uh not Captain Phasma and her underutilized story.
SPEAKER_01Oh, so many, so I'm so excited to talk about all the underutilization of characters in this series. But Nick, what about you?
SPEAKER_03Um man, I I mean I per and I'm sure we'll we'll go into this more, but I I really loved Ray as a character and like just the the very first scene where she pops up, you know, being the scavenger, and then it kind of comes out and zooms out, and you see the fallen, uh, what is it, the ATAT uh after she'd been in the this I think it was the destroyer is where she was maybe before she's getting it out. I don't know, just something about that, especially as it kind of pops out, and then you're just kind of left wondering, like, okay, well what what's going on? Like, what is the story here? What's the larger thing at play? How did this happen? Uh I don't know. I just and not to mention, I know we this is the obviously the the um uh oh my gosh, I just lost my John Williams fan club. Sure. Yeah, 100% is pretty good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, race theme is an amazing motif. Yeah, I used that word earlier and I actually wasn't sure if I used it correctly. I think you're good. Yeah, cool, cool. Yeah, good, good. Okay.
SPEAKER_03So that's that's for me. Um if I had to pick a close second, I I don't know. I'm thinking the episode seven, um, also a Kylo Ren moment, the the initial moment that he appears on screen, and then one of the first things he does is like freezing the blaster bolt. Yeah, that's that's pretty sweet. Yeah, yeah. A cool moment right there. So that's I don't know, those are like the pictures that come to my mind. And I guess both of those are from the first movie, so that it's probably good reasons for that.
SPEAKER_02I think a close second for me is when um Captain Holden, I don't know, is that her name? Oh, yeah. But when she goes into um hyperspace through Admiral Holda? Yeah, I think that's it, yeah. Put some respect on her name. Um when she uh when she goes when she goes into hyperspace um or jumps into hyper, yeah, uh, through the I don't know what ship it was, but one of the personator ships.
SPEAKER_03You don't remember from the movie there? No, I don't. I'm gonna know it once you say it. But what's her name again? Admiral Holda. Yeah, the Holder removed. Holda maneuver. That was the one. Oh, the Holda Maneuver? Yeah, that's what they think that she got named it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's cool. I mean, I guess she sacrificed herself. That's the least they can do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think or I I'm trying to remember when they I think they they named it that, and then it was brought up again. Was I might be wrong. I feel like it was mentioned again in episode nine.
SPEAKER_01I think it is, yeah. Uh uh Poe brings it up or something like that. Um yeah. Are you looking it up, Mikey?
SPEAKER_02I couldn't the Holda maneuver is a fictional, highly destructive tactic from Star Wars Last Jedi where Admiral Holda jumps the Raidus. Oh, the Raidus cruiser into hyperspace slicing through the first order supremacy. That's what the ship was called, the supremacy at light speed.
SPEAKER_01It was called like a something glass cruiser, that's all I remember. Like, yeah, that's cool. Uh so for our listeners, this is probably the the trilogy that I'm least versed in. You guys feel like that as well for you?
SPEAKER_03Um, definitely not as many viewings of it, that's for sure. So uh if that's what we're going based off of, number of viewings, then yes.
SPEAKER_01Just familiarity in general, I guess what I was going for.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, yeah, that's the same for me. Um, and again, I think for me it comes down to a place of I have a hard time caring about this trilogy as much as I do the other two. And so I think my investment in it, and it could be like my age, you know, like I was so I mean, I was what, like 10 maybe when I started watching Star Wars, nine or ten. Sure. So for me, like, you know, there is that early childhood kind of like nostalgia that that pulls me back to the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy. Whereas yeah, we were post-college. Actually, did we go see Force of Weggens together? I think we might feel like we did.
SPEAKER_03I saw it with Ben for sure. Were you there too?
SPEAKER_02I think I was, I think we saw it together. So yeah, that was post-college. So I could be an age thing too. I just don't have that same draw. Um, but yeah, for me, I yeah, so to your point, yeah, I'm I'm not as well versed. Yeah, then but we're still gonna have a good discussion about it, I think.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, we always start out with some sort of like an origins or like the intro of the series a little bit. So you would
Disney Era Expectations And First Reactions
SPEAKER_03got into this a little bit. So we're obviously talking about episodes seven, eight, and nine. Um, this was after Disney had acquired Lucasfilms that happened in 2012. Uh, they announced that there was going to be another trilogy of Star Wars, and the the expectations were through the roof immediately. Um, it'd been, I mean, at that point, what the last release was a decade before, yeah, right? Because 2005. 2005. Um, and so then The Force Awakens launched in 2015. Um, and it so to give it credit where credit's due, the trilogy was massively successful when it comes to the money that it made for sure. Um, but also very divisive, as as we know. Uh so nearly 10 years later, we've still got fans that are debating about these movies, and it's already like we're already a decade removed from them almost. From the first one, I guess. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so yeah, I think I read that it was it, it's the most successful trilogy of all time in terms of box office revenue, like as of three movies together until the third avatar comes out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah. You might be right. Yeah. Um, well, technically it is, yeah. Third Avatar already came out. Oh, did it? I don't I'm not paying attention, man. That's crazy. Stupid James Cameron. I I tried watching the the second one. That's one that we probably need to go at one time, but I tried watching the We need an expert though, because yeah, that's not my thing. I I fell asleep. Anyways, uh so well, let's let's kind of go in and we'll we'll hit a little bit of an additional discussion and and go through this, but because it's a little bit different from our typical episodes, um, where obviously we've talked about what it means to us a little bit, um, but let's just go before the launch of this trilogy, where was your guys' excitement level at?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I I think you put it well, it was through the roof. Like, I when they announced it, like I mean, first of all, with the budget that Disney could put behind it, the name, the production quality that they could bring. I mean, obviously, uh, you know, industrial light and music like had their own like great success on their own, but combined with Disney behind it and their creative power, like, yeah, yeah, uh it was gonna be incredible.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, that's I I think I was up there. Mikey. You know, it's really funny. I think I was in a time of life where I wasn't actively like involved in the fandom and kind of following like what was going on. Um, I don't know that I even knew that Disney acquired Lucasfilm until like maybe until after the first one came out. Like, I don't even think I had even heard that. Um, so yeah, I think post-college, like those first few years were like yeah, just tough kind of getting on my feet and stuff. And so I don't know that I was even really that excited. Now I remember when it came out, obviously, like you know, the hype building and stuff, and that was really exciting. Uh seeing The Force Awakens. But um, I think leading up to it, I wasn't super actively engaged and kind of aware of what was going on. But I think nowadays, if I heard about a new trilogy coming out, I would definitely obviously be like so involved and or like super engaged with it.
SPEAKER_03Well, now it's like we we don't know what's real. We already talked about this previously because there's been new things announced. It's like, well, is it is it real? Is it gonna happen? Are they gonna cancel it? Like, what's gonna happen?
SPEAKER_01I was I was just listening to something and they were talking about the fact that the two guys who did Game of Thrones were supposed to have a trilogy, but that got canned. Oh, did it? Yeah, and I was like, oh man, I completely forgot about that. Yeah, there's so many things that have yeah, been announced and cancelled.
SPEAKER_03I don't even know what what is in the is for sure coming or whatever.
SPEAKER_01So there's a trailer, like yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I don't know. Um for me, I I'm probably right there with you, Ben. I can remember being excited about it. Um I you know, I mean, I am certain, I I guess Mikey, if you were there too, I I I am certain that Ben and I went to the the opening of the first, yeah, the very first movie. Or I'm sorry, Force Awakens.
SPEAKER_01Probably sign IMAX too.
SPEAKER_03I believe so. I think we saw it on your side of town, if I'm not mistaken. I think we were over there in Hilliard at uh whatever the the theater was over there. Um but yeah, I I can I can remember really being excited for the movie. And then after going and watching the first one, I loved it a lot. Um, you know, I it's I know that that since then I feel like a lot of people have said, oh, what's just the the original remake? It is okay, yeah. A little bit like I just watched it this week.
SPEAKER_01It is. I don't even think we can say a little bit, Nick. I mean it just is. I mean it completely parallels it.
SPEAKER_03In the sense that there is the death. The Death Star part is a little bit on the street. Okay, okay, well hold on.
SPEAKER_01We have we start in the desert with a nobody. Yeah, uh-huh. Like who becomes a famous Jedi. Sure. Sure. Uh-huh. We've got um at the end, there's a death of a mentor, Hans Lullo versus Ben Kenobi.
SPEAKER_02Oh, dude, do we have a spoiler alert here?
SPEAKER_01If you're coming here and you don't know that we're gonna spoil the movies, it's again been a decade now.
SPEAKER_03But is it not just the I mean this this is Joseph Campbell's hero's journey. This is Star Wars, this is the this is the cycle of of movies in general.
SPEAKER_01Again, yes, but like, you know, there's all this stuff again about like where did the first order is just the empire reborn, like it's not a new threat, it's not just the rebels. Yeah, it's not nothing is different in that sense. Like the the they didn't bring in like some like alien force that was like trying to take over the galaxy. It's still just the remnants of the empire that are now calling themselves the first order, essentially. But yeah, like there's stuff like that that they could have done so much more with.
SPEAKER_03They could have changed it and made it in such a way that you know you you told a different story of what happened with in between that time. Like I guess that's the tough part because you've got characters that are aged up and so they felt like they had to go into the future a certain amount or whatever. But it would have been nice to kind of because you're right, right from the start, you've got the first order, and it's just inexplicably as powerful as the Empire ever was, and it is inexplicable. Yeah, I mean it's there's and I think now they they have Disney has spent some years trying to go back and and fill in the gaps a little bit. They haven't done it very well yet, but I think that there has been some attempt to try to fill it in the gaps.
SPEAKER_01I was gonna say, I did some research before the episode, and there's a lot more to the the lower than what I know, and I think a lot of it came through comic books and some like other like written pieces that again like just not a lot of people know about, and that like again, just what if you just watch the movies, you're not gonna get. You're just like okay, there's just bad guys again, and yeah, they're the same as before. Right. And like, yeah, what happened to the Rebel Alliance? They just like give up and like the rebels are gone, and now we're the resistance, like yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh to jump back very quickly, there were there have been over 20 major Star Wars projects, you know, movies, TV series, games that have been announced and then shelved and canceled. So over 20. And that's just from 2020-ish, I want to say 2021.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they just had I mean it's been a lot of misses. I mean, I know we're we'll talk about the the TV series, yeah. You know, your favorite later on. We'll we'll get into some of those. Where is uh what is the series that you're referring to? Which which one? Which what's your f least favorite, Michael? The accolades. I didn't want to be the one that said it. I we'll we'll I don't have the hatred for it. I know, I know, I know you don't. And I I respect that. But uh yeah, I immediately though the the first movie I found it enjoyable because it was Star Wars. It was it was very much that that same kind of um because it's the familiarity of it, yeah, that it was it was right there. It did feel like Star Wars immediately. Um and so that's why The Last Jedi was so jarring is because it didn't feel like Star Wars. For sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, that's fair. And I mean, again, we'll get into it more, but like I think, you know, with JJ Abrams taking it on, I think he gave the this trilogy a whole new look, a visual that some people may gripe about it, but I really enjoyed, like overall. I mean, yeah, a lot of lens flares, but I mean, other than that, like uh stunning cinematography and just an overall look, I will think I I'll admit that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, let's let's put it this way. Have um I guess I've already kind of sent it what mine was, but which sequel film did you guys enjoy the most on the first viewing?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think for me it was also on the first viewing. Oh, that's tough. I'm gonna say Rise of Skywalker. I really enjoyed Force Awakens when I first saw it. Uh and yeah, because it kind of got me back into it. And like we're saying, it was, you know, just a remake of a new hope, which is one of my favorites. And so, and I think there was so much potential after that. It was like, wow, like where is this gonna go? You know, like there was just this like you know, sky's the limit kind of feeling. Um Skywalker's the limit. There it is. That's but I think so. Going back to what you were saying about Jar Jar Abrams, I think from a visual Abrams? Wow, okay. I think from a visual standpoint, Rise of Skywalker is a stunning, it's stunning visually. I mean, it's it's a beautiful movie, like you know, from a cinematography standpoint. And so I think I and yeah, there was great action, you know, just I I enjoyed it uh when I initially saw it. And I think looking back on it now, it just for me it hasn't aged well. But I would say in after my initial viewing, I think that the third one was probably my like my of the top of the three. Yeah. So what about you, Ben?
SPEAKER_01I mean, uh Force Awakens for me, just because again, it like kind of relaunched everything. And I I really enjoyed Ray, even though she's kind of again like a similar character to what we got from Luke. I uh Kylo again just had some more unhinged aspect, like he's younger than you know, kind of Darth Vader's portrayed, and like he's kind of like what Darth Maul could have been if we had more character to Darth Maul, just kind of like wild and uh brute force and angry a lot of the times. And like I I thought that was intriguing. I liked having Finn's character come from the Empire or sorry, the first order into the resistance, and like that different perspective. I thought that was interesting and provided some uh some good character building that they didn't end up doing anything with, I don't think.
SPEAKER_03But um well I'm glad that you're bringing this up a little bit. Let's let's break it down a little bit character by character.
Rey’s Arc And The Power Problem
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Alright, so a character deep dive, if you will.
SPEAKER_02I like this.
SPEAKER_03Let's start off with Ray. I want to know your opinions. Is is Ray, do you think that she is a strong protagonist, or is there not enough development in her her story as a whole?
SPEAKER_02Uh I can go first. I think there's not enough development, you know, overall. I think that she is she became too powerful too quickly, and it makes her really unrelatable. I think that you know, take Luke Skour for Scour, for example, he went through so much like trial and hardship to become like pretty powerful, but it felt like Ray was just automatically immediately the most powerful. And I think people just don't don't resonate with that at all. And so I think if there would have been time for her to like her for her character to develop more, for her to actually like she really didn't do much training with Luke. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very minimal training, and she's already this like crazy powerful, you know, took the entire first movie to even find Luke. So like yeah, that's true. But I don't know, but um, yeah, I'm trying to think how to articulate this exactly. Yeah, basically what I said. I think people just don't resonate with a character who is just automatically the greatest, you know, without like a tremendous amount of struggle and like um so yeah, that's kind of how I felt about her. Sure.
SPEAKER_01Ben very much the same. I think she had a lot of potential. I liked the intriguing aspect of her character or her backgrounds in general, like trying to figure that out. Again, a letdown as to where it ended up. But um, yeah, I I think she had some potential. Um I I I don't know. But I g on this last rewatch though, you kind of gotta ask, like, what is her character? How would you define her other than a young girl, young woman who's trying to figure out who she is? I mean, besides that, like, you know, is she particularly like emotional? Is she very um headstrong? Does she have a lot of opinions? I I I don't know. Like, I I don't know that we did a lot, again, like with that character, but there was some good structure there that could have been fleshed out, I think. Sure.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I gotta leave that up to she I I would agree underdeveloped, however, but that is mostly from the mess that was the the the structure was there. There was bones and an outline where you could have taken her and given her a little bit more to to her character uh in future movies and explored it a little bit deeper, but instead, you know, we we get the the just what we got in last Skywalker where it was like, oh, this shifting of expectations for the sake of it. Um and and we're gonna subverting expectations. That was what you're doing. Yeah, subverting expectations. Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_01I think a lot of that comes from kind of the mess that was the production that we went through from the second and third ones. Because you know, Ryan Johnson took over the second one, right? Wasn't he slated to do the third one as well? Yes, and then again just like with the story went so off the rails, which again, Ryan Johnson, I think, like had some plans as to where he wanted it to go. Sure. And then since he didn't get to do the third one, we didn't get that story, and so we got a hard left turn. Yeah, yeah, exactly. What we ended up with.
SPEAKER_03And I'm sure we've talked about this previously, but it's just unfortunate that when you know that there's a trilogy coming, you would think that there would already be a good outline of where you want the movies to go, where they're starting, and where they're going to end up. And it just is so clear. And this is I mean, this is. Star Wars in a nutshell. It's messy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, but yeah, you think that again, like they're announcing a trilogy, like, let's put the whole arc on paper so we can see that instead of going movie to movie. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's what that is something I want to say about Ray's character, is that her being a Palpatine felt so unintentional. It it felt like, okay, we just gotta choose someone for her to be the daughter, granddaughter of that's that's surprising. That's what it felt like. Absolutely. It didn't feel like this well thought out, like, you know, well thought through kind of like arc for her, which I think if it would have been that from the beginning, it just would have come out better. Yeah, like if it was planned from the start, it would have come out better. I agree. I'm not sure how exactly.
SPEAKER_03Let's let's go back because you actually jumped on my next question. Was going to be what are your thoughts on Ray Nobody versus Ray Palpatine?
SPEAKER_02I answered first last time, G. Okay.
SPEAKER_01I mean, again, right, I think uh Ray Palpatine would have had some more to go off of in terms of like, okay, like we gotta work some extra, like some more um Sith forces, Sith influence into her character a little bit here and there. That way, like we allude to the fact that there's sort of this bloodline that nobody knows about, but like there's something there. And kind of like, you know, we got a little bit of that with Anakin, just like he's got some dark side in him, and we kind of always knew that. Ray, we didn't really get that illusion until the third movie.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm I'm gonna like having just watched the third, the third in the trilogy today, I have to say, like, obviously, I knew about Palpatine, but I forgot how early they introduce it. It's in like the first five minutes of the movie. They're like, oh yeah, Palpatine's back. And I was just like, I think that's my biggest problem with it. Like coming into it, like with all sorts of expectations about like, okay, like let's figure out some of this stuff. And there's like, oh yeah, the big bad that you guys killed the last trilogy, he's still around. Like it's time.
SPEAKER_04Somehow Palpatine returned. How many times we got hit that?
SPEAKER_01I mean, yeah, but again, like there was no there's no allusions to it in the previous two movies. There's no build-up at all. There's no hints to anything, it's just oh yeah, he's here. Like, yeah, by the way. Yeah, uh gosh.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I know you guys know, especially if we're talking Ray Nobody, how much that frustrated me. Like, that was uh that ruined Last Jedi for me entirely. Um I and and part of it was is that there were I mean, I'm sure you guys can remember that it it was there were so many theories that were flying around about what was possible. Was yeah, you know, I mean, was she somehow related to Luke? Was she you know a Kenobi? I know was a big one that was that might have been the most prevalent one. Yeah, I definitely remember that. Yeah, and I I like that theory a lot. Like I do, yeah, I really did. Um I thought that was a really, really interesting one. And then when it came out and it's just like uh this this oh she's a nobody. I uh I your your immediate reaction was well no, he's he's lying. That's what it was, like that's not the truth, that's not what it is. And it it seemed as though Ryan Johnson was like he did intend for that to be the real truth, is what I gather. And so I don't know. I and then I know the the big you know the the ray skywalker at the end. I know that that's kind of like the groan. Is there s is there a sound for that?
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, especially over this music there it is, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh and it was like it was forced, it was, you know, um but the the poeticness of it, I did enjoy, you know, just the the roundabout, like you come back to where things started in the original trilogy, and and that's kind of where you're you know what I mean, like there is a a nature to storytelling that is cyclical, you know.
SPEAKER_02I mean, yeah, yeah, I I agree with that, and I think it feels a lot more buttoned up and it feels more satisfying when that s that cyclical nature you're talking about is intentional. It's like I was saying before, like, so this is a perfect example of her saying I'm Ray Skywalker at the end. Again, that just felt shoehorned in, you know, like that wasn't the original plan, but let's just you know put it in there because it sounds good and maybe the fans will like that. You know, it just yeah, it's very it's all very unintentional.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, and again, because they have I think it's because they want to call the whole thing the Skywalker saga, right? So like if Luke and Leia aren't even hardly in the third one, then how are we gonna call this part of the Skywalker saga? So, oh, that's will just make her so attached to those characters she adopts that name. Sure.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, let's come back.
Rey Nobody Vs Rey Palpatine
SPEAKER_03We can wrap up with with Ray, best Ray moment in the in the trilogy. I know I had to ask you now, you gotta you gotta really think about it and pause. Oh I mean, I so the part that I was the most excited to see personally, um, because I didn't feel like we got really that many exciting uh lightsaber duels in seven and eight. And I even though it was a mess story-wise, we definitely got the best lightsaber duel and the most iconic looking one, you know, with the waves crashing. Like that was I was so excited like for that that second confrontation, and and um, you know, I I don't know, there was something that was just I that was exciting for me. So it was a big moment, and even though it was weird with the knife thing, but the the whole uh Sith knife that they've got that's a Goonies. It's a hundred percent ripped off from Goonies. Star Wars is is very ripped off of everything, as we are well aware. But yeah, that's that's what I think of. I I really that was a cool moment, and I guess well, I'll I'll leave it to you guys. I'll I'll put it out to you. What did you what do you come up with as your best Ray moment?
SPEAKER_01I can't think of one specific moment, but I think the aspect that I enjoyed the most that I think they did differently was the relationship between her and Kylo. Because like, yeah, I I'm not sure I love the whole like let's turn this into like a romantic sort of thing. But the fact that like your two main, your main protagonists and your main antagonists could converse like that and have um uh force dyad, like just like but that connection of like just being able to see into each other's minds a little bit, of playing off of that of them each trying to sway the other one to their side, that sort of thing. To me, that was like probably the biggest draw of this trilogy is like okay, there's something there that like yeah, just giving these two characters like that sort of uh ulterior battleground, we'll call it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Yeah, honestly, the scene where she's talking, so it's in The Last Jedi, she's telling Kylo about her experience in the cave. I think that might be my favorite Ray moment because she's actually like, she's not like this stoic, like you know, like BA, like, you know, hardcore, like all powerful Jedi. She's kind of just like this, like, you know, sad person who's just like tr who just wants to share this experience. I think I really I really enjoyed that. Um and it I I like the narrative over what's happening in the cave, and then it cuts to her actually like in her hut talking with Kylo Wren. And that's that's going back to what you were saying about how they're connected and they can you know see each other through the forest. I think that might be my favorite Ray moment, I'd say. Because it's just a little more relatable, a little more human, you know. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_03And all of our all of ours are dealing with her and Kylo in some capacity. So yeah, yeah, yeah. To to segue a little bit, Kylo Wren, best character in the trilogy. What do you guys think?
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna say no. Oh, okay. I'm gonna say no. I I love that you brought Ben that you brought up the comparison of Kylo Wren to Darth Maul, because Darth Maul I found like scary and like foreboding. And I and like I could see him being, you know, rageful and like, yeah, just a scary character. And I I don't know if Kylo Wren was supposed to be that, but he kind of comes off like comically like uh angry, yeah. And it's not scary at all. Um and again, they I think they have a few moments of like it's supposed to be funny.
SPEAKER_03Wait, is yours about ready to be who's your best? General Hucks?
SPEAKER_02Is that oh my best? Well, I'll have to think about it for a second, but I know that it's not Kyler Ren. It's not Kyler Ren. Okay, and I think it's for that reason, is that like, or like, okay, so the um the scene where he's coming up the elevator. Or no, no, no, I'm sorry. It's where he walks into where Ray was being held in Force Awakens and he's smashing everything and those two people just guards the two stormtrooper guards come over and then they walk away, and it kind of undermines again. I don't know if Kyla was supposed to be this like angry, rageful, like you know, scary character. He comes off that way, his very first scene. He definitely comes off scary.
SPEAKER_01I do think that that was kind of the intention, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But then he turns kind of like it just kind of becomes like comically, like you know, like a little kid, like throwing a tenth room. And I think a lot of people compared it that way.
SPEAKER_01I should have gotten that soundbite uh at the end of uh Last Jedi when they're shooting at Luke and he's throw everything at him or whatever it is, but like yeah, just like just hit him with everything, and he just like the anger and like yeah, just a little boy just screaming about whatever he wants.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but yeah, exactly. But again, when I think about Darth Maul, like he's a scary character, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03Like his rage, I would be afraid of. Can we be fair though? That is his character, you know what I mean? Like that is who he is. So I do think that it was meant to be. I don't know if comical is the right word, but I think you're meant to see it and go, it's not the same, like you're not it, you you're pretending to be something that you're not actually.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so you so you've answered my question then. I didn't know if that was intentional or not, and it sounds like it was. So that that makes sense to me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think so, especially based on where the story went. Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, and and even when you're looking at it from the start, like the very first movie in Force Awakens, there was a bit of like can you know, can Han turn him? Yeah. And and I so I don't know that I appreciate it as as much because I felt like it was it was very foreboding. I the first time that I watched it in theaters, it it felt like it was already written. You knew that Han was about ready to die. But when I went back and I was watching it again, I it it what like it's telegraphed and you know that that's what has to happen, but I there was still a part of me that was like, okay, I can see where they want like the it might be possible that that Han might really think he could change him, he could bring him back um because of where he's at, and even that conversation that they have on the um you know, on the the bridge it even seems like he's going to. And at first I just thought that it was him saying the thing, like just saying the right words or whatever, but then when I was watching it back again, it was almost as though I don't know, I the the it was already written that he was going to come back to the light side. And I almost watched it in such a way that Han knew what he was going to do to him, because you had this this fear in Han to go and confront him the entire movie, almost because he knew that in order to to bring him back, that that was the sacrifice that then had to be made. Wow. That was the way that I kind of watched it and what I felt a little bit as I was watching it back this most recent time.
SPEAKER_02I mean that might be me just reading into it too much, but I'm gonna watch it with that in mind from from now on, because that's pretty powerful.
SPEAKER_01I have I have zero research on this, but I do wonder if you know Leia is kind of given you know her own force powers throughout this trilogy, and I think probably canonically one of them is like seeing the future a little bit. So part of me wonders if like she saw that he would be the downfall of Han. And so Han knew that kind of like going in that like his own son would be his own murderer, and so like like you said, there's that fear of confronting him because he knows what's coming. Yeah, but again, like that's interesting. Yeah, Han knows the sacrifice that he has to make to help get Ben back. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I I would say he's my I mean he's my favorite character in the trilogy. Um and in a I don't know, the the most probably the most well acted. Like Adam Driver Wizard was great. Yeah. So cool. Like I just I don't know, I appreciated him so much. There's a reason why I know for a time they were going to give him his own series or whatever, mini-series to try and explain the Knights of Wren. And I think that was a big loss.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that would have been sick. Agreed. Yeah. Because yeah, even the first movie they mentioned the Knights of Wren and like what who? Like, yeah, and then they just like show up in the third one, and you're like, who are these guys? But yeah, oh, the Knights of Ren. Yeah, totally. So but I mean, okay, I I think like, yeah, to your point, yeah, he is the most uh he's the prone of the what one of the better active ones, and he's the one we got the most character out of. Because like, even you know, we we might love Poe or Finn or like any of these other characters, but we didn't get a lot of them, like in terms of like character building, background of what direction they might go in, that sort of thing. Like I I would almost argue that like Poe, for example, is kind of one note. He's kind of just Yeah, yeah, like Ah, we should have put a soundbite of him screaming Ray Yeah, no, like like so yeah, I think we got the most dynamic character from Kylo Ren. Sure. I'm gonna Oh, go on.
SPEAKER_03Oh no, I was just gonna turn it just to to help us get through the the remaining characters that I've got. I guess
Kylo, Finn, Poe And Wasted Potential
SPEAKER_03we could talk about Poe for a moment since you just brought him up. And and what I guess the question is, is like, did the trilogy know what to do with him as a as a character? And it sounds like the answer that Ben's giving is no.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I love Poe, I think because I love Oscar uh Isaac Oscar Isaacs. Yeah. Wait, yeah, Oscar Isaacs. Is it I think Isaac singular, I believe. Oscar Isaac, oh my gosh. I can get it. Just one Isaac. I couldn't get it. So it's hard, it's really hard for me to not like him.
SPEAKER_01I think Moon Knight is when you have multiple Oscar Isaacs.
SPEAKER_02Nice, nice good one. Uh I think if Poe were played by another actor, I would not like him as a character. But genuinely, I depending on who. I just love Oscar Isaac. He's a great actor. But I think that he, yeah, definitely underutilized, underdeveloped. He was kind of one note as well, just like the fly boy. I don't even know what's a nice thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I I think he was there to give us like some insight into the the military operation, sure, sort of, but I don't think feel like we really got a ton of it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I think again, he also had some elements to him that were, I want to say shoehorned in. Like in the third movie, when we find out all of a sudden he has this like criminal, weird, like mysterious past. Yeah, it was like you've not been setting that up at all the entire trilogy. Like, why shoehorn that in there? It's just again, one of the things that just felt so unintentional, like they just threw it in there.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's an unanswered question. There is potential, like the potential is there because you're intrigued. You want more, and that's almost I don't know. Maybe that was what the fodder was. Maybe was that their plan was we're just gonna introduce thing after thing that we can keep on coming back to and then give it to just have something to go yeah, to keep it going.
SPEAKER_01I I think uh this is a bit one of my my biggest gripes is they introduced in the second movie Rose. And she's just no one in the third movie. Right. She's just kind of there.
SPEAKER_03That was mostly because of the hate that she received after the second movie. Did she get a lot of hate? Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I didn't hear about this until maybe your social media. Really? Okay, I didn't know that. It was a bummer.
SPEAKER_03I I I don't think that I mean she wasn't my favorite character like that.
SPEAKER_02But it was no one liked her.
SPEAKER_03But it was I don't know. So I I get it, it sucks that there was so much hate. I hate how nasty some fans are about like that's part of the reason why I have such a a strong, you know, I'm always gonna find the good and that sort of thing. Yeah, definitely. Because I just I don't like it when people are nasty about it. And that was a real disappointment to me was the way that she was treated as a person outside of the show itself. Yeah. And her storyline is, I mean, it's you don't get a ton of development. However, it is tragic. You know, the very first scene opening of the bomber and her sister dying on it. Like that was there's something there.
SPEAKER_01There's some emotion there that we actually have like an emotional connection to why she cares so much about the resistance. And they didn't do a ton with it. But yeah, for sure. Agreed. Um, let's see. Well, let's talk about Finn real quick. I won't let's get through a couple more characters and then we'll we'll take a quick break. But yeah, let's have Finn, another uh one of the main characters. What do you guys think of him?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, I I love the idea of Finn. I can't remember what the actor's name is. Um John Boylega. Yeah, John Boylega, that's right. Um, yeah, he's great. Um I think I think his recent comments about the toxic fandom kind of left a sour taste in my mouth, but overall, I think he did great. Again, I think it just goes back to what we've been saying before, like underutilized, underdeveloped, like there's so much potential there. And and honestly, you can't fit everything into a single trilogy. Like we've been saying, like you have to set things up, explore them later. But at the same time, like there is more I think that could have been done. And his, I mean, I would love to know his backstory. I think it's very interesting, like being taken by you know the first order. Um, so I guess that means the first order had been developing for like 30 years, because what he's what, 35, maybe 35 years old.
SPEAKER_01I thought he was like mid-20s. Oh, was he? Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, you might be right. But anyway, so that's a side note. But all that to say, um, I feel I feel about him, Finn, similarly, than I do to the other characters, basically, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I feel like he his main purpose was to give insight into the first order and give like the resistance, like, oh, here like a leg up kind of yeah, like here are the things we need to do because they do this and yeah, which helpful and like helped skip some of that, like, oh, we need to go find this and figure it out. But at the same time, like uh what does that do for him as a character other than just be a fact machine?
SPEAKER_02He's almost like a plot device in that in that case, in that context. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I um they they certainly did waste the potential of the character as as they did on many of the things within the the series that we've already talked about. Um I like what we got. Like I so we we've went into like how there's always this this tendency to go back and then bring in more context later and go back to it. And uh I think that's just the nature of of uh storytelling nowadays and and trying to add that additional information in and fill in the gaps, and I don't know how much I love that anyways, but his his uh storyline, his origin, if you will, was simple enough for me. Like I didn't feel like I necessarily needed to know more. I I'd be glad to. I think he's an interesting character. It'd be it'd be cool to see um some more within. And just overall his um Yeah, like you said, once he outlived his usefulness of giving the the information to the resistance, then at that point it was like, okay, well what's what is his purpose within the trilogy? And they they fumbled with it a little bit, they couldn't really figure out what to do with him. But the fact that I don't know, I mean there there was that wasted I I don't know if you want the the um the romance between him and Ray, but I I do like you you got this this sense of deep caring that he felt towards Ray the entire time. And so there was a part of me that was, you know, I mean I I don't know if it's a from a romantic stance or whatever, but that I kind of wanted them to be able to explore their relationship even more and see what happens as as things progress even further.
SPEAKER_02I thought you were gonna say there was a romance between him and Rose.
SPEAKER_01They they kind of tease something like that. They kind of tease, I've heard some people teased a uh a homosexual romance between him and Poe. Like there's again, like it's just kind of like but like you know, fans will do anything. Sure, sure. But I I mean uh again, like, and that that kind of goes into we have this core group of the new generation of Ray, Poe, and Finn, and like they're bonded together, but we don't get to see a lot of that. They're to get all three of them are together very little, yeah. So there's not like yeah, that like camaraderie, like this is our little troop, and we're going out and doing these things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you're actually articulating something I was I was trying to figure out. What at the end of the Rise of Skywalker when they're all together again and they're hugging and it's this like really supposed to be an emotional moment, there's no build up to that. That that doesn't pay off anything that we're seeing on screen throughout the trilogy. Cause yeah, that's that's a great point that like we don't really see if anything in the second movie it's all about Finn just trying to find Ray, like he's always asking about her, trying to find her, like there. Isn't any actual like kind of emotional relation between them? Um, those relationships aren't seen being built up, so it's just kind of like it's like eh, okay.
SPEAKER_03I'll kind of wrap up for our last character that I want to to talk about. Let's
Luke, Leia, Han And Missing Reunions
SPEAKER_03let's kind of wrap up three into one the the legacy characters, you know, uh Luke, Leia, and Han and what the what the trilogy did with them. I don't have any specific questions, but which one I mean, do you feel like one got the better end of the story than the other? What what kind of thoughts do we have about the legacy characters within the the whole trilogy?
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm gonna repeat something that people have been saying for the last 10 years. I'm so disappointed that they didn't appear together on screen. Yeah. I think again, just I don't understand why. I mean, that's would be so it would be so wonderful for the fans, for people who love the original trilogy. I know that this is geared towards like a new generation and whatnot.
SPEAKER_03Or let's be real. I mean, part of the reason that they didn't appear together uh was was at least the fact that that Leia passed away. You know, I mean like sure it's a huge part of it.
SPEAKER_02That was but I guess they they already killed off Han after the first movie, but yeah, that's kind of what more I was thinking too, is like um yeah, because he was killed off, you know, obviously before she passed, and so that was kind of where they were going with it. But I think that was just that that's probably if I have one gripe, if I could choose one gripe with the whole trilogy, I think that'd probably be it because um it's just sad. Like seeing them together like in a Star Wars movie on screen, like reunited in some way, I think would have been amazing, it would have been emotional, like a huge payoff, like but just they didn't do it, and so how do you feel then about them having Han and Leia be split up? Um I yeah, that's that's a tough question to answer. I mean, I think for me, like I want them to be together and for them to have had like a happy life and marriage, you know, like that would be the ideal. I think from a drama story standpoint, it's like okay, you gotta throw something in there to shake things up. So I understand that.
SPEAKER_03I think it made sense to me. I thought the part that was funny is I was re-watching again, so this was the part that I didn't necessarily love about uh The Force Awakens, was their dialogue upon meeting again was almost straight just trying to it was trying to replicate I love you, I know. Yes, but it was more so that it was so I'm talking about the part where they're like debating, so um they talk they lay this story out about what's happened since they have been split up, and it's almost like a way of of glossing it, like rather than going and and trying to explore that a little bit more or what you know, whatever it might be, is they just mentioned it real quick, and it was just conversation to to to further the plots, yeah, you know, to um it was almost exposition, yes, it wasn't quite, but nearly that's that's what it felt like to me. Oh no, it was Snoke, he seduced our son to the dark side, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, yes, like I don't know.
SPEAKER_01And I was reading up on that, and like uh a lot of Snoke's backstory is like he was like using Ben solo from a distance and could connect with him and like influence him that way, and it's just stuff like that. I'm like, okay, like I mean, I'm all about like we're talking about a mystical force that unites the world and everything flows through. But at the same time, like, okay, so we're just gonna be able to communicate with someone we've never met across the galaxy and influence their mind and feels contrived, yeah, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Which one which one got the best representation in the Luke from the series?
SPEAKER_02Luke Luke too.
SPEAKER_03I mean I'm going Han. I I really I mean he was obviously the main one of us aside from the you know the uh Kylo and Finn and Poe and and uh uh Ray, he was obviously the other main character of of that movie. And I really I thought they did him well. I I appreciated his his overall story within that you know that that movie. And I thought that it was told okay. It was fine, you know. And then when I think about Luke and Leia, I just felt like they both kind of you know got the shaft a little bit. Neither one of them felt as good to me. That they they just didn't treat them as well as they could have.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean I think Leia gets a pass as we discussed because she basically only filmed one movie and then everything else they just kind of filled filled in with what they wanted. I think Luke just got to fulfill some of that, like he's master Yoda now. Like, I'm a quirky old man and I'm just gonna do what I want and still I'll try to teach you, but I'm like, I'm I'm I'm over here doing my thing. Um, yeah, I enjoyed that. And like again, like ultimately seeing him be able to use the force in a different way, and again, like, okay, astral projection, like, is that a thing or whatever?
SPEAKER_03It's funny that both of you guys said Luke when a generation older than us would definitely say that Luke was their least favorite because of what they did to you know, there was so much complaint from people that are a little bit old Gen Xers that were in, you know, before that were just so upset about what they did to his character. But to me, it made a whole lot of sense. Like uh from a from a story standpoint, from where would his character go next? I I wasn't unhappy about the way that that Luke was treated. I just wish that I don't know, I mean, that the first movie wasn't all about trying to find him and that they could have worked him in a little bit earlier on and tried to, you know what I mean, like had their moments together and you know what I mean, like tried to do it.
SPEAKER_01I think we're back to there's only so much you can do within these three movies. Sure. And like while they're trying to build, like trying to build up a new core of characters while also keeping the original three, the big three, like as a big part of it, like it you couldn't do both. I don't know that they did either one right, but again, like they I think again they tried some things and some successes, some failures, but like I get ultimately, like there's only so much you can only have so many characters in a movie that you care about, and so it was hard, yeah, like on their part.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I need to backtrack real quick. I actually misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking like who got the most like time and kind of fleshed out character, not who was treated the best. Yeah. I 100% agree with you that it was Han. Yeah. And I am one of those people that despises the way they treated Luke Skywalker. I was having a long conversation with uh a couple of dear friends right before this at uh we were at a dinner, and uh we're we were talking about this. Anyway, so uh so I gotta I gotta change my answer to that.
SPEAKER_03Fair enough. All right. Well, why don't we take a brief break? We'll come back and uh continue our conversation. Everybody was excited at that moment.
SPEAKER_01I just thought it was a different thing for how some of us might feel about some of these movies. The garbage will do. Uh okay, so I wanted to bring this in with a question for you guys.
Porgs, Toys And A Rapid Fire Round
SPEAKER_01Speaking of just controversial things in general, what's your take on porgs?
SPEAKER_03I I don't have a strong opinion.
SPEAKER_01Um I feel like you and I have gone back to forth on back and forth on them before. I think I mean it's Michael, you have to look them up. I am really oh gosh.
SPEAKER_03I don't have a strong opinion. I mean, you know, I it it's just like uh product plays when they when they make things just specifically because they want to sell toys of those things, and that's what they were. I mean, and that's yeah, I feel like that's very Star Wars-esque in a sense. I so I I wish that I don't know, I wish there was like something more about them or something that they played more of a role in the store. At least like the Ewoks, you know, did something.
SPEAKER_01Like, yeah, they were just there for marketing purposes, but they did something.
SPEAKER_03Uh I I liked uh you know blue milk a little bit better.
SPEAKER_01Those those weird creatures that you're whatever, yeah, Luke milked in the second one. Oh my god. That was something else. Looked at Ray with his mustache, his little milk mustache.
SPEAKER_03Well, I have um some other deeper discussion questions, but before we get into that, you know, we always like to do some sort of a rapid fire around. So let's let's try and go just around the horn on a few things. Some of this we've already discussed, but some of it's uh not as much. So uh fun segment right here. What do you guys think? I've already said my favorite lightsaber duel. What do you guys think? Favorite lightsaber duel new new trilogy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm gonna I'm actually gonna say the same as yours. Uh the one out on the Crashed Death Star in the waves.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh again, yeah, visuals had the most at stake. Uh I s I it might be controversial, but I the close second for me is the one in at the end of Last Jedi with uh Ray and Kylo teaming up against Snokes guards. Again, just visually fascinating, like some different sword fighting techniques that we haven't really seen, that sort of stuff. So yeah, but uh the the one and the the ultimate one essentially between them, yeah. I think yeah.
SPEAKER_03We we've hit on this a little bit, but what do you think is the or who do you think, excuse me, is the best new character?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm gonna say Ray. I mean, I didn't really answer your question from earlier, which was similar, but um I think in terms of you know development, potential, kind of, you know, where they were going. Um I think it just is Ray.
SPEAKER_01Kylo for me. I like I kind of said before, I feel like we got the most out of him, and we were just about like 90% of the way to like a super satisfying ending. Just like a couple things that felt like were missing at the end, but sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I'm going, I'm going odd here. I'm I'm bringing in somebody we haven't even talked about yet. Maz Kanada. Really? I I love Maz. I I wanted more Moz.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think I think that's my problem is we just don't know anything about her. She just like knows all this stuff, and like I don't know.
SPEAKER_03She was I don't know. She was the most like interesting looking, has just like this intriguing, runs this, you know, watering hole, has the knowledge, whatever, seems to have something about her that's more, and then later on when it kind of flashes back to her, I wish that we could have gotten more about like what she's up to. And who knows? We might one day get to hear a little bit more or see a little bit more of what she uh you know got up to at that at that time or whatever. But yeah.
SPEAKER_01When I think of her, I just think of the bar scene in general, the bar she runs or whatever. Fun a fun fact. You guys know who made the music that's playing in the bar? No. No. Lynn Manuel Miranda.
SPEAKER_03No kidding.
SPEAKER_01Yep, that's him making that music and singing that.
SPEAKER_03You'll have to go back and listen. I do know. I mean that's really funny. Huh. Uh, most underrated scene. I'm so sorry.
SPEAKER_02I know we're sitting here in total silence.
SPEAKER_03Um, I'm I'm gonna I'll I'll come in with at least something. Um I so I think that some people were were disappointed in the whole. So this would have been uh um Rise of Skywalker uh and the the death of Chewy scene, whatever. Like I I felt there I you you felt the air get sucked out of the room. Like, did that just happen? Is that really what what happened? And and just kind of the I don't know, the way that that it h the way that they took him out, and you're almost like, no, no, no, there's no way that they would kill off Chewbacca. But I did believe it for a minute. I don't know. There was there's a part of me that's like, man, I'm is this uh you know, is this the sacrifice that has to happen at some point in the movie? Kind of like all of the movies have to have some sort of death or something that happens at one point, but I don't know. I it hit me at least, and I was I was moved a little bit and relieved quite a bit when he did appear back on screen, like okay, all right, we're good. Okay.
SPEAKER_02I would say for me, I think it's the beginning of Rise of Skywalker when Kyler Wren is on his adventure to find the Sith Wayfinder. I almost feel like that could have been its own movie.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah. Like and I think again, like one of the things that I think if that was its own thing, we there's a lot more in Rise of Skywalker would have had better payoff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, definitely. But I think that's and again, I don't know if it's more of a sequence, I guess, than a scene, like one one scene, but like that idea, that sequence, even some of the action, you know, the slow-mo action of him, you know, fighting in the forest and stuff, like that felt pretty intriguing to me. And I think that I've I haven't really heard people talk about it, so I'm assuming it's underrated, but I'd say that was for me.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna go with the kind of like the opening action sequence of Last Jedi, of uh the bombers making their runs, and like we kind of talked about it before, but it's it's it's very cinematic, it's dramatic, it has some classic war elements in general, and I think it's set up a lot for Last Jedi of you know, like of the the bits of the resistance just being constantly on the run pretty much the whole time. Like I think it's set up a lot there. Sure. And again, like I think it's set up a lot, and yeah, for me, that's that I kept wanting to come up with like fake answers because like oh yeah, the casino scene and that one really did it for me. But that was uh that was a weird one.
SPEAKER_03Um all right, so let's jump into a little bit of would you rather? Would you rather train under Luke or Leia?
SPEAKER_02Well, not the new Luke, because he's a cynical old man and who hates the world. Now I mean can you blame him? Return the Jedi Luke. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03The Luke that shows up to train the the Luke that should have been.
SPEAKER_02I'll I'll train under him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Ben.
SPEAKER_01I'll say Luke. I'm good with, but I'm good with the last Jedi one. Yeah. I know a lot of people, including Michael, don't like him. I I think, again, like he's cynical, yeah, but I think that, you know, well, who else are you gonna get more wisdom from? Yeah, that's true. Like maybe Yoda, but that's not one of the options.
SPEAKER_03I gotta I gotta go Luke, I guess. Uh I Leia was it was kind of like you said before, that it felt like it was forced, even though I think that it was planned. Like they had planned to work that in, that that Luke, you know, training Leia and that sort of thing, even though it was what it came in in the last movie, right? Yeah, I believe so, yeah. Um that she, you know, had trained under him for a certain period of time. And so I I don't know. Like I it I I wish that they they would have gotten to do what they wanted to do with that. Um, anyways, uh fight the first order or the Sith Eternal. Which the Sith Eternal that is inexplicable. Inexplicable.
SPEAKER_02We use that word so much. Uh I'm gonna say fight the first order. They seem just they seem just like their run-of-the-mill, you know, just evil empire, yeah, you know, can that gets beaten every time.
SPEAKER_01I yeah, I don't think we know enough about the Sith Eternal to determine how big of a threat they are. I mean, left to left to their own devices, clearly they can do a lot. But how how long were they working on that stuff? Do we know? Like, I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Pilot the Falcon or Pose X-Wing. X-Wing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm gonna say the X-Wing too.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I love the again, yeah, love the Falcon, but if I'm gonna be a fighter pilot, like I'm I want to be in that X Wing.
SPEAKER_03The the Dark Falcon. Yeah, the Dark Falcon's cool, yeah. Uh no, I oh I it's hard. I I it is a cool like his X-wing is cool. I think I I like it, but the Falcon, I I do there's nothing more Star Wars than the Millennium Falcon. Yeah. All right, well that's what I got for the uh the Would You Rather lightning round. Let's let's jump in while we still got a little bit of time into a little bit deeper discussion.
Last Jedi Fallout And Rise Of Skywalker
SPEAKER_03Um about we've we've hit on some good parts and had some decent debate, but I want to actually ask this question. Was the last Jedi a a bold and necessary decision or was it ultimately more damaging to the trilogy?
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna say that just based on the based on how it split the fandom, it was damaging. It did do damage. I don't know if it was Ryan Johnson's intention to subvert expectations and just you know kind of take it in this like totally different direction than what people were expecting. I don't know if he was intending to do that. I think if he was, that makes me upset. I I don't like when people are like instigate and subvert expectations for the sake of instigating. I I hate that.
SPEAKER_01Especially with such a big fandom and such a like cultural icon.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, totally agree with that. So I think to answer your question, like just in reality, it did a lot of damage. So that's what it well, that's what happened. You know, again, was it supposed to be that way? I have no idea.
SPEAKER_03That's a fair answer. I I think that I would agree with what you say. I if he did it on purpose, that that almost makes it worse. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think it does. Um if if it was I I and I don't think he meant to, I don't know, to because it really like it really did. I mean, that's why you got so many canceled projects afterwards, like it stemmed from The Last Jedi, and then the the mess that was Rise of Skywalker trying to clean up after it still further made it more difficult. Like it was just impossible. It felt so hard to come back from at that point. And I don't know what they could have done. But I remember I was satisfied with uh Rise of Skywalker when I first saw it. I think w rewatching it again, I can I understand the criticisms. Um but I I I enjoyed it. It was fun. I I I was I I think that it after what happened in uh Last Jedi, it was the best possible ending that I feel like we could have gotten.
SPEAKER_02No, that's a fair assessment, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right. But that could be I could be wrong about that. It could have been if if Rian Johnson had been able to make his last movie and made it the way that he wanted to, would it have been a more satisfying? I don't know, maybe because I do like his I like his other movies. Like I like him as a director. I just don't know that him as a director of Star Wars was um, you know, that that was not my favorite.
SPEAKER_01I think there's something to be said about coming into a place where there's potentially infinite lore that can be built. You know, like like there's uh hundreds of thousands of planets that you can choose to have this thing or that thing, alien races, powerful creatures, like there's just so much, and I I I think that like yeah, when handed something like that infinite, some people might take it a little too far. Yeah, so maybe we got some of that in there, just like there's so many places you could take this thing, right? Like, yeah, without a clear direction, sometimes it's a little bit like uh messy and just muddy.
SPEAKER_03No, that's fair, yeah. To to transition a little bit, do you think that the backlash as a result of The Last Jedi did it impact Rise of Skywalker too much?
SPEAKER_02I would say it felt like it did because it does seem like they overcorrected and it seemed like they put in too much fan service. Yeah, and again, bringing back Palpatine, like to try to, you know, like do something that the fan that they think the fans would love, you know, things like that. Bringing back Lando felt a little shoehorned and love Lando, but yeah. Yeah, a lot of stuff felt shoehorned in. And again, I I I firmly believe it was because of that backlash, which that in itself is a bummer. Like, I wish that didn't happen. I wish they would have, you know, been able to be more intentional and like kind of go continue in the direction they were going. Um, so I I think, yeah, I think it it did influence it too much.
SPEAKER_03Well, we've we've been, I think we've talked at least a decent amount about the negative. Is there anything else that you guys got to get off your chest? I've got one more thing that I want to get off my chest. Um, and that, and this is it's not I I don't know that it's fair, but I'm gonna say it anyways, because we haven't brought it up, and that is uh I I think you know what I'm gonna say, right? No idea. Yeah, no. Oh, I'm just building it up too much then. Leia floating through space. Oh, okay, yes. Yep. Absolutely, yeah, no. So angry. Yeah, and that was about when that movie lost me.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Dang, okay. I remember being in the theater and just being like, what am I watching right now?
SPEAKER_03Like I was so mad. Yeah, yeah. Because I we obviously knew that they were gonna have to kill her off. Exactly. I knew that that was going to have to happen, and I was so mad when they were like, Oh, we're gonna bring her back in, and she's going to still be there. And I'm like, that was that was I mean, it was unfortunate. It was sad, it was it was heart-wrenching, and then you brought her back in, and he's put himself out there as a way of like being surprised. Like the rest of the movie, he didn't have a problem being surprising and and you know, all that stuff. But like that moment, I was like, that was it cheapened the blow.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because your immediate thought when that that gets blown up, you're like, what? Like I mean, the same way that they did with Chewy. Did that just happen? Is that is this for real right now?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I mean it didn't.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. And again, like I think that's something that like might have taken away from the third movie, is they felt like she had to be in charge now again of of the resistance. And so like they leaned on her a lot in the third movie when they didn't have that much footage of her. Right. They didn't like, I mean, I know they CGI'd some, but they didn't. want to do a ton. And so again, like yeah, like by bringing her back in that movie, it altered the third movie. Like and I don't know that it would have been ultimately better, but I it it had a chance. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I that was I I remember that moment in the theater and I I that was I was lost at that before we ever got to you know the the ray nobody and all that stuff. Like that that that was where I was lost. I get that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well but yeah anyways that's what I had to get anything else that you guys need to get off my sh your chest before we move into let's talk about some positive things a little bit more.
SPEAKER_02I I'm gonna leave it at this I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm done talking about uh all my gripes and it's so funny again I I'll I referenced this conversation I was having with some friends before we you know we're recording here and I was telling them like yeah I'm gonna I'm not gonna be negative like I'm gonna be positive because like the whole the fandom has spent 10 years just beating this dead horse about how awful the trilogy I was like I'm not gonna do that. Like I need to be positive and I'm you know and I don't know I I feel like I've been somewhat negative yeah more direct than negative.
SPEAKER_03We haven't been I let's put it this way we could certainly be more negative there there's and there are plenty of people out there that have been a lot more um uh you know just nasty towards the trilogy I think we're being right now I think it's just a a good conversation of yeah let's be real like where where are the things where they've they've gone wrong and where I think it could have uh potentially been improved we're just three guys three fans yeah what about you Ben any last words crystal foxes they're up there with porks for me like why are they the mayor?
What The Sequels Actually Nail
SPEAKER_03Why well they're again another plot device to find device yeah there's so many other things we could have figured out there than these weird little crystal foxes but okay go on well let's let's transition then what the the sequels did well so let's let's start there if you had to choose just one thing that you thought that the sequels did the best on what would it be maybe not the best in the in the the whole entire universe but just like what was just ultimately something that you don't think they completely messed up yeah Ben let's see I think we talked a little bit about just action in general I think they all did a great job action wise like we haven't had a lot of like space battles like that in a long time we haven't had a lot of one-on-one duels like hand to hand combat sort of things in a while that felt like this um and again we talked about the cinematography and some of the visuals some of the most like yeah there were some awesome moments that that would be my if I had to pick one yeah it's certainly the visuals and the things that stand with you from that and the the planets that they visit and stuff like that. That's that stands out to me as something that is really cool. The you know the other two trilogies I mean obviously one came out in the 70s 80s so it wasn't near as good anyways but but still a visually iconic they did a great job still yes absolutely so that'd be if I had to pick something that was just very strong that'd be my that'd be mine for sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah Mikey yeah I was trying to think of something within the actual Star Wars story but I think if I can just talk about it overall it was going to be the visuals too just the cinematography. I mean it is beautiful like especially yeah just some of those it it feels very larger than life I would say like going back to the the scene we referenced uh the final duel in uh between Kylo and Ray in the third movie like that it is just beautiful looking you know and I don't know where that was filmed uh the island that Luke is on where the Jedi Temple is I mean those like you know Scottish highlands yeah I've yeah I have no idea where the island is but that's beautiful scenery and so um yeah I think that's probably what good locations to see good locations good locations yeah and then the what was it the salt mine planet is that what it was the white planet with the red dust like yeah that was that was again iconic and visually stunning for sure if there's one thing that I loved about I mean that last Jedi had that was really cool it was it was that that planet that scene was was a cool moment.
SPEAKER_01And I mean we like the the parallels of again like they're kind of like taking from Empire Strikes back of but like being holed up in this place and like this ultimate force like coming at you and like the last stand, last alamo sort of feel of like there's so few of us and so many of them like capturing that again was great.
SPEAKER_03Like again is it a little too close to the parallel of the past trilogy maybe but yeah I think we got some cool uh I mean just different animal or excuse me alien species and stuff like that and different planets that we've already kind of mentioned a little bit and then ultimately as as I know we all agree we we can't go any further without mentioning again the John Williams score.
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah absolutely going back to him I I don't think there was any way I I could you imagine if they tried to make the sequel trilogy and then did not involve him well I think yeah I was gonna say I think he had another composer that helped him with a lot of it like he like co-wrote it we'll say but you know because like he brought in the themes or whatever and had someone else like use his style essentially to like build it out. But yeah again just great music I talked about my favorite is I can't remember called March of the resistance or something like that. But like yeah when the Should we hum it again? I don't know that everyone wants to hear that or we'll get a copyright strike because we'll have it so great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well
The Sequel Legacy And Future Star Wars
SPEAKER_03I've got one last segment of the show that I want to cover and that is the overall legacy of the sequels let's kind of talk big picture um you know has since the last movie released has there been a change in the perception in the fandom over time as now that we are several years removed from the movies is is it different than it was at the time? Is it the same? Where what do you guys think?
SPEAKER_02I can really only answer from my kind of YouTube bubble I'll call it that because you know the algorithm feeds me whatever I'm into and so I think I've kind of found myself listening to commentators and critics that really despise the tr that the sequel trilogy and so from my point of view what I'm hearing it does seem like it's gotten worse like the perception of the film or yeah the films and um I think when you compare them to other Disney Star Wars you know IPs like Andor and the first two Mandalorian seasons like those are so good and so it it almost makes the old movie the sequel trilogy seem worse you know because it's like oh man like you know compared to this stuff like and I think and I'm sure you guys would agree with this the prequel trilogy I think people have grown to love like people's love of that has grown the perception's way better people view it way more positively now and I think part of that is because people dislike the the sequel trilogy so much so it almost feels like there are these two kind of like spectrums being created where it's like the more that people dislike the sequel trilogy the more they like these kind of other things. Because they're just you're just gonna naturally compare. Sure. So I think that's kind of my perception of it right now. And I don't know if Disney is intentionally trying to distance themselves from uh the sequel trilogy like in terms of merchandising and like you know some of the Disney parks and stuff. I I've heard that like a little bit here and there. I don't know if that's really true or not.
SPEAKER_01I mean a part of it I think they might be trying to distance themselves like you said like I think that's part of why what their next big push was was the higher public of going let's go instead of going forward let's go all the way back when there's a two a lot of it did yeah but I mean there were the books obviously there were plenty of books yeah and they still might explore there's supposedly is still a trilogy in the works that deals with some of that but um yeah again like I think that's that that's part of them trying to separate it of like okay there's only so many different directions we can go here like let's at least go back to this past place where there's a ton of Jedi and yeah like um and again maybe the acolyte didn't do it well but maybe they learned some things and they can try some other stuff.
SPEAKER_03But yeah yeah I I I I would agree with a lot of what Michael said that it does kind of feel that the perception it it is still very much disliked um among the the fans that it is you know the original trilogy and the prequels now but to think I you brought up a good point and an interesting point that kind of leads into my other question is um the same way that we have an appreciation for the the prequel trilogies do you think that it's gonna come back around eventually and the younger fans which are younger than us are going to love these films the way that we millennials love the prequels.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I I think that it's quite possible that we will see a generation like you know a lot of these people who like this was their first Star Wars movie will probably be like 15 to 18 ish by now or whatever but like so like maybe they will have a pretty good attachment to it. And like again maybe I I'm maybe a lot of young females will have seen Ray like one of our first like our first female protagonist Jedi like that we've really gotten yeah I mean like we can argue Leia but like you know she was never especially the original trilogy portrayed as a Jedi like she had some forced sensitivity we could tell but yeah um so like I'm sure we will see a generation who grew up with these characters and will love them for what they are. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02No that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03Yeah I wonder if we'll get the same amount of like revisiting years later like the way that we have now with the prequel stuff and the continual going back to because again they know I mean they know where their bread is buttered. They they're gonna go back to the people that have the money as we've talked about before on other episodes and uh and make content for those people and that's what it feels like.
SPEAKER_02Well with Maul I mean that's a perfect example.
SPEAKER_03Exactly that show is absolutely made for the three of us you know what I mean I hope and I can see them coming back and doing I mean especially as we've mentioned all of these places where they could have explored more of this but they didn't and so maybe maybe just knew that they were going to come back and explore you know this stuff again 20 years from now you know whatever it is. So I I'll be interested to see where where it goes and I mean as as we've said before I will always continue to love store Star Wars and after the the trilogy was made and despite disappointments and everything else like I was still I mean it's it's not like all of a sudden I'm not a fan anymore and I'm not gonna watch the new content that's come out and I've still watched most of the shows that have come since which at some point in the the future is where I think we're gonna try to turn our direction to next which is going to be tricky in itself. We might have to shoot we might have to pick those apart one at a time.
SPEAKER_01Well yeah I was gonna say I know I know for sure we'll have like a a series episode. Yeah we'll have a maybe we didn't split it to like animated series and live series. Yeah we there's so much there's a lot but I think we could talk quite a bit about I mean you know just Mandalorian that's there's gonna be enough content between those things that we could definitely talk through and and then like I said I I want to do one on video games yeah because those games have there's several games that have had a a huge impact on me sure and have contributed to my love of the franchise and again like I want to get Michael to come and play Fallen Order and Survivor what are you doing now? Well not now I never I'm kidding.
SPEAKER_03All right it's your bedtime final reflection um this is kind of going back to what we've already talked about a little bit but um you know a a genuine if you had to pick one thing that you genuinely love about the sequel trilogy where would it be?
SPEAKER_01Like just one thing to leave us with just the continued exploration of the Star Wars universe. I like I'm never going to be upset about getting more Star Wars I can sit here and pick apart things and like gripe about things but ultimately it's a universe I love I like the themes around Jedi and all these other things that we get to explore and talk about that's that's what I love the most.
SPEAKER_02Yeah I actually man that was really well said I might have to just say ditto to that because again it's like I'm one of those fans that I I can I can really hate on specific things but I keep coming back because I do love it. Like there's just this like deep love of like you know the um yeah what Star Wars is. So yeah I'm just gonna say ditto to Ben.
SPEAKER_03That was that was well said I'm I'm with you I don't think that I could have said it any better um ultimately I I um I don't know I I I think that we've got good characters. I I truly I genuinely did enjoy the you know the three main leads in the the new trilogy and I don't like I I they they were good and it's hard especially when you're coming in with new characters to make you care about them. And I did. I truly did it wasn't like I was waiting just for them to to come and and get to the legacy characters. Like I was excited for that I wanted to see it um but I I liked the you know I I I thought that the the it was intriguing the especially Finn starting out with him and just his his background story as the you know the the stormtrooper that goes rogue kind of thing. It was it was interesting. It was it was different um I think from what we had gotten previously. So I I don't know I I just I especially in a in a world these days when when you are coming back to um stories that people love and then how hard it is to make you care about those new characters I at least felt like Star Wars did it well um even if if I think that they could have done it better. I I still I still did care. Yeah
Next Plans And How To Reach Us
SPEAKER_03absolutely all right well that kind of brings us to the end of this episode. Wow we did it guys we we hinted that uh you know we we will be coming back to Star Wars and and exploring it more um in the in the future sometime over the next year uh but uh you know we we we should probably hint to our next episode which we actually already did in our last episode we're out of order again guys yeah we are so that's that's just how it goes scheduling no scheduling is hard and especially bringing in guests which we're happy to do and we're excited for yes but we are definitely it's it's locked down we're definitely gonna be recording golden girls um and I'm excited to talk golden girls I really am if you uh you guys been preparing been watching the no i've I'm I might want to come in cold I this is one of the few that I feel like I know nothing about so yeah I'm looking forward to that though what about you Michael he gonna he gonna do any preparation yeah we'll see what happens yeah just you know it's one day at a time see how it goes well as always I guess we don't have a guest to thank this time so I'll just thank both of you because thank you Nick thank you guys for one whole year one year making wow making thank it thanks to the listeners as well I mean if we're being honest we're not doing this for you we're doing it for each other um but we we love that there's people that are listening along and and we are so thankful that um just anybody takes the time to to listen to us and uh you know I I we we appreciate it we love hearing from people that have listened and giving us comments and stuff like that and things that um you know that we can kind of bring up in the show so um thank you guys all for that thank you for a year for the show for the show and uh yeah until next time we're uh we're signing off here at fandom outpost that was a bad sign off but Michael take it take us away all right signing off for Phantom Outpost Studios we'll see you next episode that's a wrap on this episode of Phandom of Fandoms if you loved it hit that follow button at FOF.pod on Instagram and threads and leave us a quick review wherever you're listening to this podcast.
SPEAKER_02It's like fuel for our little nerdy spaceship. Got a phantom us to tackle shoot us a DM. Until next time stay curious stay passionate and keep repping what you love
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